YStealers.

[coredump]

60mm: You need to be more careful when quoting rules.

The FAQ does *not* say "Ymgarls are Special Characters for the purposes of psychic powers..."

It starts from the assumption that they *are* special characters, and then asks if they are "special versions...for the purposes of psychic powers..."

It then goes on to list many (all?) of the Special Characters that the rule effects. Included in that list, are the Yealers.

So the Codex/FAQ considers Yealers to be Special Characters.
The BRB contradicts that.... but when the codex and BRB contradict..... codex wins. (Which is why Yealers can assault from reserves also...)


Now, you can then argue that this was not the intention, or that GW was lazy, or didn't realize the repercussions... and to be honest, that sounds plausible. But I would not have expected them to create *any* units of all characters, special or otherwise... so who knows.

[Deleted]

Well let's assume that we all agree that Ymgarls are Special Characters. You would then use the BRB for the rules they will follow as that unit type, which is why it is being suggested that they can make challenges. The codex and FAQ make no special allowances to our unit's Special Character rules, so we would look to the BRB and the BRB says only one of any Special Character can be fielded. So as with only being able to use one Swarmlord or one Deathleaper, you'd only be able to use one Ymgarl. Which is illegal according to the Codex. To make Ymgarls work as Speial Characters you have to break more rules as nothing anywhere changes the Special Character rules for them.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 22, 2012 19:59:13 GMT @60mm said:

Wisdom you are straight up bending,choosing and ignoring words for what you want. I don't know how much clearer the FAQ can be when it defines them as Tyranid Special Characters FOR THE PURPOSE OF psychic psychic powers, biomorphs and special rules.

*snip*

Wrong. The FAQ says that they *arent* special characters for the purposes of the biomorphs and such. Read carefully.

But hey, go to a tournament and try to pull "every single Ymgarl I have is a Special Character", and tell us how it goes.

It would probably go pretty well... But I don't use y genestealers, so I'll never be able to get that ruling from a judge if it came up. I still take my beloved hive guard.

Edit: rereading the relevant faq several times I can see how someone can see the faq as making Ymgarls SCs even though that's obviously not the intent. So if you want to run your Ymgarls as SCs feel free to do so as long as you follow SC rules, you can only field one. Meaning you can't use them. But hey, they'll be sweet SCs on your shelves!

Cite where it says that you can only have one character in a unit. Do it. Come on. *waits for you to check the rulebook*

Couldn't find it? Odd... How could that possibly be.

I have said this 4? Times now. Are you suggesting in your right mind that you *cant* use grey knights palidins? Is that really what you are trying to argue? Because, assuming you do have a rulebook, it's pretty clear a paladin is a character, an that paladins come in units of greater than one model.

The book says unique = character, not character = unique.

Psychichobo: it's not actually that great a boon. If anything, it will cause one of your y genes to 1v1 a sm Sargent and probably not kill it right away (or lose the attacks from that model. It's really relevant when your against the swarmlord (by the way, we aren't in despite that the swarmlord is a character, right? Cool everyone? Okay cool) to lower the total wounds dealt to the unit.

[Deleted]

According to the BRB, Paladins are Characters. Not Special Characters. Characters are not restricted to one.
Pg110, Special Characters, bolded rule Unique
"Each special character is unique, so a player cannot include multiples of the same special character in an army."

Again, Special Characters are different from Characters (like Paladins), Special Characters have the additional rule "Unique", Characters do not. There is nothing in the BRB that says a unit can't exist entirely of Characters, nor are there any restrictions to how many of any Character you may use. The BRB is very explicit in saying you may only have one of a Special Character though. It is a rule.

If you feel there is something that over-rules the rules for Special Characters in the BRB, feel free to share it.

[wisdomseyes1]

Or it's defining "unique" as I have said, since unique characters are not in the reference section.

Unique = character. That is pretty clear. But this is similar to "a characteristic is 0/- means "no ability whatsoever""

In a general sence, that is true but isn't true across the board. Y genestealers are defined as special characters but lack the unique characteristic on their profile, like how a unit with BS0 is allowe to shoot template weapons even though it says "no ability whatsoever" on page 5. (and yes there are BS0 models with template weapons as standard wargear, so it's relevant)

This ruling is cutting it pretty close, so we use the FAQ>codex > rulebook.

[coredump]

Cite where it says that you can only have one character in a unit. Do it. Come on. *waits for you to check the rulebook*

Couldn't find it? Odd... How could that possibly be.

I have said this 4? Times now. Are you suggesting in your right mind that you *cant* use grey knights palidins? Is that really what you are trying to argue? Because, assuming you do have a rulebook, it's pretty clear a paladin is a character, an that paladins come in units of greater than one model.

The book says unique = character, not character = unique.

If you are going to be this snarky and pompous, you should at least be sure you are correct.

First, 60mm never said "you can only have one character in a unit"
No one is debating that "Paladins come in units greater than one model"
The issue here is dealing specifically 'Special Characters'... and the rules surrounding them.

And last of all, the rulebook is pretty specific:
"Each special character is unique"

So yes, it *does* say 'character=unique'

Psychichobo: it's not actually that great a boon. If anything, it will cause one of your y genes to 1v1 a sm Sargent and probably not kill it right away

Then you are missing out of the benefits of characters.
Assault necron Lord with Yealers and Swarmlord, now you can absorb all of those MSS challenges with Yealers, etc.
Assault any big badass assault IC, and make him only able to kill 1 Yealer per turn
Assault any unit,and use Precision Strike to pick out any models you want.

Pretty good boons....

[Deleted]

Nothing in the BRB says Characters are Unique, in fact the Character section of BRB says "They are effectively just another trooper...". They only Characters who are unique are Special Characters, as the Special Charcter rules says. My question is, if you wish to play Ymgarls as Special Characters, how do they ignore the rules for Special Characters and not others? Unique is in fact the only rule that being a Special Character adds, so how do you ignore the only rule it adds? Codex/FAQ does over-rule the BRB, I fully agree. So find the part in our Codex/FAQ that over-rules the Unique rule for our Special Characters and share it.

[coredump]

Aug 22, 2012 23:09:57 GMT @60mm said:

Well let's assume that we all agree that Ymgarls are Special Characters. You would then use the BRB for the rules they will follow as that unit type, which is why it is being suggested that they can make challenges.

Yes, you use the BRB, unless it contradicts with the Codex. The BRB says you can only take one Yealer per army; the codex says you can take 5-10 in a brood. Codex wins.

There might be a play for saying you could only take one brood... have to think about that one.

you'd only be able to use one Ymgarl. Which is illegal according to the Codex. To make Ymgarls work as Speial Characters you have to break more rules as nothing anywhere changes the Special Character rules for them.

Not sure where this is coming from. In general, codex trumps BRB. BRB says only1, codex says 5-10. Codex wins.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 23, 2012 0:02:04 GMT coredump said:

Cite where it says that you can only have one character in a unit. Do it. Come on. *waits for you to check the rulebook*

Couldn't find it? Odd... How could that possibly be.

I have said this 4? Times now. Are you suggesting in your right mind that you *cant* use grey knights palidins? Is that really what you are trying to argue? Because, assuming you do have a rulebook, it's pretty clear a paladin is a character, an that paladins come in units of greater than one model.

The book says unique = character, not character = unique.

If you are going to be this snarky and pompous, you should at least be sure you are correct.

First, 60mm never said "you can only have one character in a unit"
No one is debating that "Paladins come in units greater than one model"
The issue here is dealing specifically 'Special Characters'... and the rules surrounding them.

And last of all, the rulebook is pretty specific:
"Each special character is unique"

So yes, it *does* say 'character=unique'

Let me first start by apologizing for seeming "snarky an pompous". It's risidual aggregation from every post I make having SOMEONE, without fail, not always the same person, but someone saying I am either wrong or stupid. Additionally, I wasnt the first to be agressive in this conversation, but of you want to single me out that is fine. I don't care at this point.

Secondly, the rulebook is also pretty clear that a unit with BS0 can not shoot. Why do we allow that then? Why can Skarbrand use breath of chaos and why can the ork psyker use his powers that automatically hit?

Because when it says "no ability whatsoever" it is a generalization, and not true across the board. Similarly, and actually relevant to *this* conversation, it says "all special characters are unique" and then goes on to list a character that is defined as a special character that doesn't have the unique characteristic. Now while the rulebook that special characters are unique, it is possible for the codex/ FAQ to ignore that rule altogether.

I can't wait until every codex is updated, so we can finally stop having these debates on what is and is not a character.

[Deleted]

Aug 23, 2012 0:10:06 GMT coredump said:

Aug 22, 2012 23:09:57 GMT @60mm said:

Well let's assume that we all agree that Ymgarls are Special Characters. You would then use the BRB for the rules they will follow as that unit type, which is why it is being suggested that they can make challenges.

Yes, you use the BRB, unless it contradicts with the Codex. The BRB says you can only take one Yealer per army; the codex says you can take 5-10 in a brood. Codex wins.

There might be a play for saying you could only take one brood... have to think about that one.

you'd only be able to use one Ymgarl. Which is illegal according to the Codex. To make Ymgarls work as Speial Characters you have to break more rules as nothing anywhere changes the Special Character rules for them.

Not sure where this is coming from. In general, codex trumps BRB. BRB says only1, codex says 5-10. Codex wins.

All I'm really saying is that it shows that labeling Ymgarls as Special Characters was a lazy slip in a Q that had nothing to do with denoting who is a SC. Since being a SC only adds one rule, Unique, why would a model be a SC but also ignore Unique? It's completely non-sensical. I understand using the exact wording of things to your advantage, but this just reeks of WAAC usage. I'm not gonna keep on this but if you guys really wanna push this on your LGS, have fun I guess.

[wisdomseyes1]

It's not a lazy slip in the question, it's an old question that had different meanings when the question was asked. A difference without a distinction, but they forgot to put "you can't move through your own models" in the rulebook, but make references to it in 4 places... So, saying games workshop overlooks things isn't all that shocking.

I ignore the unique part for the same reason I ignore the BS0 means its impossible to shoot and for the same reason Cordump a while ago ignored the steps of a psychic test where it says "take a psychic test". Because generalizations are not rules, not entirely. They are outlines of the rules.

Now, I can believe them to be characters. It's aventagous... It adds to their power... But it doesn't break them. I expect an FAQ (if it manages to come up often enough) to fix it, but with no reference section we can only assume. Which of course means this convo will go nowhere fast

[coredump]

Wisdom, I was not calling you out for being snarky, I was calling you out for being snarky and wrong.

You made a number of statements that were (and are) factually incorrect. If you are going to be snarky, you should be really careful to be correct.



60mm: Being SC adds more that just one rule (unique), it adds all of the character rules also. It is quite possible that yealers are not meant to be characters.... and it is quite possible that Nobs are not meant to be a unit of characters. But for now, everyone is playing Nobs as a unit of characters....

I doubt I will play yealers as characters... but I might... have to think about it. But they are listed as Special Characters in the FAQ, and it is pretty explicit in doing so. Was it a mistake? maybe... but hard to tell those things.

[wisdomseyes1]

It doesn't add unique though... It says that they *are* unique. A generalized statement. Only models with a unique characteristic are limited to 1 per army.

Just like you *cant* shoot no matter what if you have BS0(page 5), but units with BS0 have shooting weapons that automatically hit.

You said "a number" when it was 1 statement. "the rulebook doesn't say that characters are unique" which is true, except I didn't realize special character was the unique character section. Further, I still believe my statement is correct. Not because it doesn't say that they are unique, but because y genes aren't unique an the rules only describe that special characters are unique. Y genestealers don't fit that description but are still defined as them (the Tervigon doesn't fit that description either but it makes sence since you need to have all of your HQ's to be characters so you can have a warlord)

[coredump]

You are still conflating Special Characters and Characters. Tervigons are not Special Characters.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 23, 2012 18:19:35 GMT coredump said:

You are still conflating Special Characters and Characters. Tervigons are not Special Characters.

I didn't mean it like that... I do really hate how I can't proofread my posts edits I post them to see how it can be interpreteded

I said it makes sence Tervigons are characters because you have to have characters as HQ's. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was calling them special characters, though it does seem like i did.