SM Solution to overwatch

[paxmiles]

I know this is a tyranid forum, but this one has been being tinkered with in a local forum, so tyranid players should be aware of this planned tactic for some SM armies.

SM are low in number, while being expensive on a per model basis. Even losing a single marine to overwatch is costly. A simple scout is 13pts. A basic marine is 15pts. A vanguard vet is at least 35pts. A terminator is at least 40pts.

While SM have good armor saves, the loss of a single model can represent the loss of 10-25% of a squad's offensive power. With multiple assaults, this can become a real battle of attrition to the SM.

Solution is dreadnoughts. Doesn't matter which type, even a rifle dread will function perfectly for this.

Idea is to declare initial charge with the dread, who with AV12-13 is basically immune to small arms fire, and then send the second charge at the unit, while no longer being subject to overwatch.

Targeted unit can choose to overwatch the dread, or pray that the dread fails to reach them.

Should they overwatch the dread, the unit is no longer able to overwatch.

If they hold their overwatch and the dread makes base contact with the unit, they are no longer able to overwatch.

Only way the target unit can overwatch the second charging unit, is if they hold their shooting and the dread fails to get in range. However, the second unit may just decide to not charge at this point.

So, for example, At the start of the assault phase, a unit of 3 pyrovores is in charge range of my dread and a 5-man SM assault squad. If I send the assault marines in first, they take 3d3 S5 auto hits, likely killing 1-2 marines. If I charge with the dread, he absorbs the shooting (S5 vs AV12) and the marines make it in at full strength, which in turn increases the odds of success against the pyrovores.

Pyrovores are probably a bad example, as they are likely to die to shooting prior to the assault, but it illistrated the merit of this tactic quite well.

Assaulting devil guants, dakka fex, or a tyrannofex would be approached in a similar manner (AV13 dreads probably needed for dakka fex). Remember that as long as the second unit is able to entirely kill the target at a higher initiative step, the dread is in no real danger from MCs - he is merely a tool to deny their overwatch.

As for counters, anything which reduces charge distances or prevents them is a viable counter.

In example, a dakka fex bubble wrapped in gaunts is immune to this tactic, as the dread would merely hit the gaunts on his charge and would be unable to engage the fex.
-Pax

[Deleted]

Eh, they need to toss out a bunch of dreads and have them all near squads to make this anywhere near reliable. This same tactic is going to be used by most people in some shape, just as many here have talked of using Rippers for the same thing.

[nurglitch]

I think I wrote about this on my blog last week.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the lookout though!

[wisdomseyes1]

Getting a dead to come up close to our MC's and on occasion charging them seems silly, and unlikely to happen.

It is a good idea in theory, but especially against monstrous creatures this tactic seems folly. That said, out MC's don't overwatch. Out tervigons, however, march alongside some interesting shooting models. It could be sound for them to charge a dread into the devil/vanilla gants... But there is always that tervigon just steps away.

[WestRider]

Aug 2, 2012 21:03:56 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Out tervigons, however, march alongside some interesting shooting models.

Is this something I'm missing, or just a function of the MCs you use? Because I've been expecting my DakkaFexen to toss out some non-negligible Overwatch Fire, and if there's something preventing that, I want to know.

[Bot]

Marines? Afraid of Overwatch? Hahaha! xD hmmmm... what does that make us then?

As for the marines trying to use Dreads to save a man or two in assault... Well... Doesn't mean that much to us really. A dread is a dread and it should be treated as nothing more nor less. I mean, if a nid player starts basing his/her Tactics on Overwatch, then he/she has been doomed from the start of the game. That said, if you can make sure your opponent won't deny you overwatch, then of course take the chance.

Aug 2, 2012 22:24:55 GMT WestRider said:

Aug 2, 2012 21:03:56 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Out tervigons, however, march alongside some interesting shooting models.

Is this something I'm missing, or just a function of the MCs you use? Because I've been expecting my DakkaFexen to toss out some non-negligible Overwatch Fire, and if there's something preventing that, I want to know.

There's not restriction for Monstrous creatures. You can overwatch with them as you would with any other unit.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 2, 2012 22:24:55 GMT WestRider said:

Aug 2, 2012 21:03:56 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Out tervigons, however, march alongside some interesting shooting models.

Is this something I'm missing, or just a function of the MCs you use? Because I've been expecting my DakkaFexen to toss out some non-negligible Overwatch Fire, and if there's something preventing that, I want to know.

Well in the case of the tervigon, it's the taking a gun that can't be oerwatched and can't hit fliers because it is better at anti infantry (cluster spines vs stinger salvo)

But that's not what I was saying in the slightest. I didn't say you couldn't overwatch an MC, I responded to the topic where the dreadnought was charging a unit of gants, which means it got close to our MC's (using tervigon as an example because tervigons are always near gants )

[Raven]

Personally, I have no problem with Marine players throwing their Dreadnoughts into my cannon fodder gaunts, then getting ripped apart by the Tervigon nearby. The only time this would be an issue for me would be if they went after my spored devilgaunts, as I can't guarantee my Flyrant will be nearby.

[WestRider]

@wisdom'sEyes: OK, that makes sense now. It's just that, with how new 6th is, I know there's stuff I'm still missing, and want to check.

[N.I.B.]

The SM solution to Overwatch is to simply show up in the 3+ armour before the party.

[greatescape13]

I agree with NIB on this one. They're going to suffer only marginally from overwatch--the solution might be less combat squad action and more sticking to 10-man units, that way a bad overwatch round (losing 2 models) doesn't cripple the unit.

As for players being so afraid of overwatch they take dreads for combo charges? That's fantastically silly and great for us. Dreads are getting seriously wrecked in 6th edition, between grenades, Hull points, and the focus on mobility (getting models to the best side of the target unit to take casualties from). If a marine player is bringing a 150+ unit to save 1-2 space marines' lives (30 points), then they're just not thinking things through. Dreads certainly CAN do this, and it is a handy tactic if the situation comes up, but to plan a list around minimizing Overwatch? That's giving the opponent an advantage.

Cheers.

[fragile]

Necrons are about the only Overwatch that can get nasty with their bonus hits on 6's. Other than that, OW is just a wound here or there that typically will be saved in most MEQ.

[hyv3mynd]

Faced 4 incinerators in a squad of purifiers or purgators yet? 4d3 str6 ap4 auto hits.

But at that point you just decide not to assault them.

[paxmiles]

Aug 2, 2012 22:59:44 GMT Bot said:

Marines? Afraid of Overwatch? Hahaha! xD hmmmm... what does that make us then?

As for the marines trying to use Dreads to save a man or two in assault... Well... Doesn't mean that much to us really. A dread is a dread and it should be treated as nothing more nor less. I mean, if a nid player starts basing his/her Tactics on Overwatch, then he/she has been doomed from the start of the game. That said, if you can make sure your opponent won't deny you overwatch, then of course take the chance.

How about a dakkafex brood? Say a group of 3 all with TL devourers.

Ironclad dread assaults in, taking the shooting in overwatch without so much as a glance. Next comes in the 5-man honor guard unit with relic blades and an attached Chaplain.

HG+Chappy+Banner feature 21 S6 attacks on the charge at AP3, and another 5 at AP4. As they all re-roll hits, I'm looking at 9.33 wounds with no saves, and 2.22 with saves. Dreadnought also has 4 Swings on the charge at S10, for another 2.66 wounds without saves.

So looking at 11.99 wounds without saves at initiative 4, and another 2.22 with saves. Fexen likely, never get to swing at the dread at all, having lost all their wounds at too high initiative.

Although this situation features 520pts of marines, it features 570pts of fexen. This situation is idealised for the marines, but it illustrates the potential of this very nicely.

If we do the same attack, but have the HG charge first, I'm looking at 36 TL shots for overwatch, resulting in 1.83 dead HG, which in turn lowers my attacks by 3-6, lowering the odds that I can kill all the fexen, resulting in causalities on my side as the fexen get to swing at their initiative.
-Pax