|
|
Post by shrikestrike on Jul 27, 2012 16:26:00 GMT
So last week I played my first game on 40k in many years. I recently posted, asking for advice on list building. I ended up tweaking the list based on available models and played a game. Here's the list I ended up with. Prime w/ Deathspitter and 2x BS, TS, regen 2x hive guard 2x zoanthropes Deathleaper 22 hormagaunts w/AG, TS 20 Devilgants w/ mycetic spore 8 genestealers w/Broodlord, TS, using stock BL powers 5 warriors w/LW, BS, TS, deathspitters, and a barbed strangler 2 biovores I had intended to use 15 gargoyles but was not able to get the models together so I took deathleaper instead. I was very unimpressed with the zoanthropes. They got killed early on by krak missiles and had fairly ineffective shooting. Having to pass a psychic test, then hit, then not get denied, then wound means they need to jump through a lot of hoops to do any damage. I feel like I'll be forced into taking them because the meta in my area has a lot I land raiders and the only other thing I have to deal with them (based on models I own) are carnifexes. The hive guard did well, killing a rhino (the only tank on the board) on turn 1, but after that they didn't do very much. They killed 2 or 3 marines, but they made their points so I shouldn't complain. Deathleaper did well. His -LD ability caused my opponents general to break from combat twice when he otherwise would have held. Of course, he was a marine so it only resulted in us moving the combat back across the board a bit, haha. Deathleaper also killed te tech marine manning a thunderfire cannon, which was a big weight off my shoulders. That gun was freaking nasty! The genestealers outflanked into a great position, but unfortunately his scouts outflanked right on top of them an killed all the models but my broodlord during his shooting phase, with the help of 2 other squads. My cover saves could not withstand firepower of that magnitude ;p The Devilgants were probably the MVP's of the battle, they wiped out a storm shield terminator squad the turn they landed and did a bit more damage before getting shot to pieces. The warrior squad did pretty well, wiping out another terminator squad even though the prime and 3 warriors had already been shot to death before making it to combat. Now I know not to put my prime closest to my enemy! The hormagaunts did reasonably well. They got blown apart by the thunderfire cannon, dropping them to 7 models before reaching combat. Even 7 models was enough to wipe out a tactical squad, but they died to shooting the next turn. The Biovores did well, I'm very happy with them for the point value. They didn't kill too much, but forced 2 well timed pinning checks which my opponent failed. I got smoked on VP (1-6, yikes) but I chalk that up to inexperience and getting dice stomped badly, my opponent made more armor saves than I thought possible.  Any comments on the list or my thoughts regarding the units I used would be greatly appreciated! I probably won't be playing another game for a while as my daughter is due to be born within the next week, but I will be doing a lot of assembly and repair of old models, as well as list tweaking. Thanks in advance! |
|
|
|
Post by immortalblue on Jul 27, 2012 17:06:19 GMT
Sounds Luke you enjoyed the game which a lot of people forget is the whole point!
I'm curious as to why you think leafing with the prime is a bad idea? The way I see it is that allows for a lot of look out sir! rolls, and the wound shenanigans that go with it...
Sent from my GT-I9300 using proboards
|
|
|
|
Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 27, 2012 17:21:04 GMT
I agree with the "jumping through hoops" tatement. Deny the witch effected you means you were using the warp blast? I am fairly sure vehicles can't deny the witch, but I am not sure on psykers in transports (haven't bothered reading much into vehicles this edition)
To avoid the missile thing, attach a tyranid prime to the unit. Zoanthropes are really taken for their warp lance, as a land raider killer, and nothing more. Flexible, but to a point. They are taken to deal with what give guard can not.
Hive guard kill transports. Pretty one sided job. After those become obsolete, aim for t4 multi wound models. HQ models are usually the best bet.
Sounds like someone forgot the rule "look out sir" which would have meant all of your guys would likely still be alive for that combat.
Well soon to be combobulations!
No real comments on the list you haven't already made. Lack of MC's hurts me, but I can deal with it if you play it well.
Seems you really just need to remember some of your rules (look out sir being the big one) and you should be fine
|
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Jul 27, 2012 17:38:52 GMT
Zoans: Against AV13/14, Zoans are still one of the best options in the game, regardless of the number of hoops.
Since you opponent only had1 rhino... you should have rolled for new Psy powers from the BRB.
Krak missiles are a problem for them, but it should still take 9 shots to take them both out. With no TMCs, you had limited good targets for the MLs. (Zoans and warriors mainly)
Deathleaper tends to be an 'advanced use' unit. If you did well with him, that is really cool. Typically, you want to target psykers with the -Ld if they have any.
Warriors: No no... you *want* the Prime in front. You need to read up on Look Out Sir. That prime could spread around those wounds to various warriors, and only take the S8 wounds on himself. In theory, you could take 2 Krak missiles wounds, and 10 regular wounds, and not lose a single model. Similarly, you can be sure that any follow up Krak shots, would go on a model with 2 wounds.
As a tie in, if those Zoans had rolled on Biomancy, you could have cast Endurance to provide FnP and the 'regen' power. Or Warp Speed when they hit combat, etc. Or some Psy Shriek on the bad guys,etc.
I hate thunderfire cannons....
It sounds like it went okay, just a bit unlucky on some things.
|
|
|
|
Post by scrotatohead on Jul 27, 2012 17:59:53 GMT
I chalk lack of playing to much of what contributed to your loss. 6th is a different beast than previous versions. I still haven't played my first game yet but hav gleaned a tremendous amount of info/advice from the Tyranid Hive.
Don't presume that Carnifex are weak in this edition. A 'fex with dual twin-linked devourers is very effective, particularly if podded in. If you can get him into assault with a raider he's stand a pretty good chance of wrecking it. I read a battle report this morning on another site in which two fex were podded in along with podded devgaunts and the result was pure carnage. Reserves come in on a 3 now in turn two. With assistance from a Tyrant that means coming in on a two, which gives you a good chance of your reserves rolling in together in a wave of death from above.
|
|
|
|
Post by shrikestrike on Jul 27, 2012 20:44:48 GMT
I did actually use wound allocation tricks with the warrior unit. On the first turn I got hit by 2 krak missiles and put them both On the prime so as not to lose any warriors to ID, I had regen in him in hopes of regaining a wound on my turn. Before my turn the unit took more fire and I failed one of the look out sir rolls, then failed my save. The prime died then the unit got chewed up by more krak fire the next turn. I made it into combat on turn 3.
I had expected him to field a librarian for his HQ, but he used a normal HQ choice instead. As such, Deathleapers ability was not very useful. He did a fine job, but ended up dying to a tactical squad on turn 6.
I made another list for my next 1500 game, one that is quite a bit different than the previous list.
Prime, all the same stuff
Warriors, no changes
2 hive guard
Doom of malan'tai w/spore
14 hormagaunts w/AG, TS
15 hormagaunts, same
15 Devilgants w/spore
2 carnifexes w/ 2x TL devourers
I dropped the zoanthropes, biovores, and genestealers.
I could drop to 1 carnifex in a spore and field another unit, probably of gargoyles.
|
|
|
|
Post by vecuu on Jul 27, 2012 21:19:00 GMT
I know back in the day having your units "earn their points back" was a huge tactical advantage, but I encourage you to abstain from that line of thinking. Killing X amount of points or Y number of TH/SS Terminators is cool, but you could, in theory, almost table an opponent and still lose if he has more Victory Points.
My advice is very simple: Play for the objectives.
It's just like chess. It doesn't matter how many of your opponent's pieces you take if he puts you in checkmate. From turn one on you should be thinking about how you can accumulate Victory Points, because, at the end of the day, those are how you win.
Just my 2cents
|
|
|
|
Post by kurbutti on Jul 27, 2012 22:37:37 GMT
Wise words, vecuu.
And to that end shrikestrike seems to have a decent amount of Troops in there. In stead of Carnifexen, I think a Tervigon would be a great addition to this list. It will provide you with some cheap cannon fodder / backfield objective holders. This would be optimat because then you can allocate all of your other troops to offense. In addition, you can have potentially 3 more Psychic Powers you can play with. Going biomancy on Terv is a common strategy, as with 3 powers you have a decent chance of getting at least something useful for your army, and relieves some stress from your Zoanthropes (They can fully focus on killing tanks while Terv provides the buffs, should you decide to field them again).
A sample list, keeping the core elements intact
== HQ ==
Tyranid Prime (1) - Deathspitter, Pair Of Boneswords, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration = 115 pts.
== Elites ==
Hive Guard Brood (2) = 100 pts.
Zoanthrope Brood (160 pts.)
Zoanthrope (2) = 120 pts.
Mycetic Spore (1) = 40 pts.
== Troops ==
Hormagaunt Brood (16) - AG, Toxin Sacs = 160 pts.
Hormagaunt Brood (16) - AG, Toxin Sacs = 160 pts.
Tervigon (1) - Crushing Claws, Cluster Spines, AG, Toxin Sacs, Cat, Onslaught = 235 pts.
Termagant Brood (15) - Devourer = 150 pts.
Tyranid Warrior Brood (280 pts.)
Tyranid Warrior (4) - Deathspitter, Lash Whip And Bonesword, Toxin Sacs = 220 pts.
Tyranid Warrior (1) - Barbed Strangler, Lash Whip And Bonesword, Toxin Sacs = 60 pts.
== Total ==
1360 pts.
Note that you still have 140 points left. forgot to stick Devilgants into a spore though! You can fit a Doom Of Malan'Tai in there, or Deathleaper if you want. Alternatively, you can get those Gargoyles too. Biovores aren't out of the question either. Maybe even a swarm of rippers to deny Overwatch? The structure of your list is very akin to what I usually field at 1-1,5K. The thing I find most satisfying is the flexibility. Lack of Monstrous Creatures isn't that detrimental (A Biomancy-Tervigon can be a true horror if it gets the good stuff) even at 1,5K. So, what do you think?
|
|
|
|
Post by shrikestrike on Jul 27, 2012 23:50:40 GMT
I'm very interested in fielding a Tervigon, though I don't yet own one. I plan for that to be my first purchase once things are settled in at home. I really hadn't even considered swapping out stock psychic powers, I really should take a look at the power lists. I keep reading about people using biomancy...
The advice to "play for the objectives" is really solid. I'm so used to the only strategy being "wipe your opponent off the table" that I really need to rethink approach. Time to do some serious planning!
|
|
|
|
Post by nalathani on Jul 28, 2012 0:01:30 GMT
I agree with the above advice about Zoans. Take them for warp lance in case of land raiders or lots of dreads. If they don't have LR's or dreads, swap out their powers for biomancy. You can still do damage with Smite if you need to, but you could also land things like Endurance or Enfeeble (enfeeble is freakin' sweet).
|
|
|
|
Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 28, 2012 1:57:57 GMT
I'm very interested in fielding a Tervigon, though I don't yet own one. I plan for that to be my first purchase once things are settled in at home. I really hadn't even considered swapping out stock psychic powers, I really should take a look at the power lists. I keep reading about people using biomancy... The advice to "play for the objectives" is really solid. I'm so used to the only strategy being "wipe your opponent off the table" that I really need to rethink approach. Time to do some serious planning! People are going with biomancy because that is the power discipline that "keeps" catalyst for the most part and functions around blessings, which is what tervigans have always been used for. It's the best discipline for her. And solid advice indeed. I guess I used plaguebearers as the example somewhere else. Oh well. |
|
|
|
Post by DukeMantis on Jul 28, 2012 4:14:08 GMT
Whats the benefit of double boneswords? Sorry to interject |
|
|
|
Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 28, 2012 4:48:05 GMT
Whats the benefit of double boneswords? Sorry to interject Cheap weapon that ignores all armor saves. No point in a lash whip when you put it with a unit that already has 5. Also, the ID factor is cool, but not completely relevant. |
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Jul 28, 2012 6:13:07 GMT
With your second list, I would try and finagle another Prime to put the the Devilfexes, for more wound allocation games.
|
|
|
|
Post by mhqvick on Jul 28, 2012 15:02:47 GMT
dukemantis: one bonsword: ignore armor, if it makes a wound th wounded must make leadershp test or instant death
2 boneswords: ignore armor, if it makes a wound the wounded must make a leadership test on 3d6 or instant death, and it is only 10 points (:
|
|
"
