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Post by leeroy1986 on Jul 26, 2012 22:21:34 GMT
Hiya, I've played a few games now and I'm thinking I'm starting to get a gage on what is good and what is not, anyway I just wrote a list can you let me know your thoughts please  HQ. Hive Tyrant - 385 Points Paroxysm& Leech Essence,2xBrain Leech Worm Twin-devourers, Hive Commander, Armoured Shell. 2xTyrant Guard. Elites.3 Zoanthropes - 180 Points. 3 Hive Guard - 150 Points Troops.5 Tyranid Warriors - 175 Points Deathspitters. 10 Termagants - 50 Points Tervigon - 210 Points Adrenal glands, toxin sacs, catalyst, onslaught, dominion. Heavy Support. Trygon - 200 Points Trygon - 200 Points. Total 1500 Points. Also here is my thought on all of the Tyranid army thus far after a handfull of games in this edition. - Hive Tyrants In my last game the guarded one sustained lots of fire and through Iron arm became toughness 9. I've tried Flyer ones and the mobility is nice, but in my experience lots of massed fire and lots of grounding tests brings them down quite quickly, so I think the guarded Tyrants are best. - I don't have any of the other HQ's so haven't tried them. Swarmlords look nasty but with no ranged attack I can forsee people avoiding them like the plague lol. - Elites, Hive guard are like the nicest anti-tank unit in the game imo. Zoanthropes I kinda need to take on the Off chance a Land Raider or a Monolith or a bunch of Leman Russes shows up. - All the other melee seems a bit too fragile to send forward like Lictors they usually die in Assault having no real good save. Pyrovores are awful and Ymgarls, in my experience Stealers just get shot to pieces. - Venomthropes maybe worth a shot at a later date also, mobile cover is never to be sniffed at, my only issue is they can be targeted out easily. Warriors now I haven't had much joy with them yet in this edition thus far but I know from previous experience they can be useful babysitting objectives. - Termagants and Tervigons are pretty much the ideal units to sit at the back. A MC that holds objectives through Tervigons and a cheap and cheerful 50 point unit through gaunts. - Stealers and Hormgaunts are nice don't get me wrong, but they are very fragile and die easily to bolter fire and seen as their role is to get forward it happens more often than not. That's my only problem with them. - Devourer gaunts in a pod seems very nice as well, but again my experience of gaunts that get forward isn't a good one so I try to have gaunts sit at the back on objectives out of harms way  - Rippers are pretty useless and mycetic spores I may have to consider at a later build, they don't really fit into this list. - Shrikes seems very good, but very pricey for what they do and the 5+ save really bugs me(hurhur). Raveners seems very nice but also very expensive, but they are very multi role and not affected by terrain so I did consider these instead of Warriors but they can't contest. - Sky slashers, flying rippers I mean seriously? Gargoyles seems very nice I may have to purchase some, not only do they screen, but the weight of numbers of attacks when they charge through Hammer of Wrath is atonishing. - Harpy's seem alright and work really well in the new rules with flying Hive Tyrants, but they are only Toughness 5 with a 4+ save so can easily die to massed bolter fire. I think they got work in a heavy air cav army though. - Carnifexes are very nice but very expensive, someone wrote that the only build considering is the dakkafex and I pretty much agree, it's the saturation fire I reckon the best option is between these and Trygons, so it may be worthwhile trying out both. - Trygons are amazing, 6 attacks, 6 wounds toughness 6, you really need to be a tough cookie to get rid of these, combined with Hive Commander it's a nice little trick too. Mawlocs are awful they don't really do anything in my experience. The rest, well Tyrannofexes aren't really needed now tanks die alot quicker and our Elites seems far superior anyway, Biovores maybe good vs a selective few armies but I think the Trygon or Fex is better. What are your thought on the units and my army list guys? Thanks, Leeroy |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 27, 2012 1:12:25 GMT
Venomthropes. I used them last edition in tandem with tyranid primes. They didn't get shot down so much after that.
I like my gants in the middle of the board. Not camping at the back, usually, unless i force them to fall bak or there is no purpose in pushing forward (no objectives in the middle for example)
What is give commander doing for your trygon? You are deep striking I assume. Take a list with 1 or 2 of them footing it and watch the magic as they make it across the board. With few issues. Its actually quite amazing.
Tfexen were never good at taking out tanks anyway, question then becomes: is it worth the slit as an infantry killer? It's a real question too, because it is our toughest MC point for point and has some amazing auto hit/ blast infantry killing power.
There is a biovore thread in the tactics section with some great info on biovores, who are cheap, long ranged, and kill infantry who are becoming easier to see. All armies use infantry, and tanks aren't lasting as long as they used to. Saying that, I agree when you say "some armies" because Tyranids are anti infantry in the core.
Carnifex: the only reason this guy isn't being used is because he is outshined by his equally cost new relitive, the one girl in which every fex box was being sold for... the tervigan. Yea, they are both the same points cost, but he is 2 more wounds and scoring, along with a unit producer. And with the conning additions of new psychic powers, tervigans just got smashy as well, giving up 1 attack to match carnifexen in terms of power.
Gargoyles > hormagaunts. The only thing hormagaunts have now is rage, ad that comes at a giant risk.
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Post by squash on Jul 27, 2012 2:49:14 GMT
Hormagaunts also have an extra base attack and reroll 1s to hit.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 27, 2012 2:53:38 GMT
Hormagaunts also have an extra base attack and reroll 1s to hit. Blinding venom > scything talons. And hammer of wrath more or less helps compensate for the loss of an attack. |
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Post by leeroy1986 on Jul 28, 2012 12:59:55 GMT
Gargoyles have nice mobility also.
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Post by Gravekeeper on Jul 29, 2012 16:22:20 GMT
Gargoyles are great, but Hormagaunts are great as well. They are scouring and are just as fast as Gargs IMO with Move through cover, run on the higest of 3d6, fleet gives them a reroll on charge range (which gargs also can if they use their wings in the assult phase, but then they would have to move a 6" in their movement phase) making them just as fast as gargs the turn they are charging.
Both are great, take both in my opinion.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 29, 2012 17:34:23 GMT
I think your idea of their speed is missing something.
Gygoyles ignore terrain. Period. Hormagaunts have a chance of moving normal speed in difficult and can't move at all with impassible, they go around.
Gargoyles are guaranteed 12" move and have an average charge range of 7"
Hormagaunts have 6" move, and about a 10" charge (being very generous). There is NO running and assaulting anymore, so bounding leap is near worthless when it comes to threat range.
Scoring is helpful, and that may be a factor in taking them over gargoyles, but in one of the 6 game types gargoyles are too XD not the best reason, but a good reason to take at Least 1 fast attack.
It's all personal opinion, and point for point gargoyles win out. Scoring is a point I forgot to address, but gargoyles can contest, and can screen trygons now.
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Post by leeroy1986 on Jul 29, 2012 17:53:01 GMT
In my experience Hormagaunts just seem to get shot and not really do alot, which is a shame because I own over 30 of the blighters. I will need to buy some Gargoyles in the future at some point because they do seem very nice in this edition, especially with Hammer of Wrath and the blinding venom.
All my Tyranid lists that have been successful have revolved around having lots of big bugs and very small amount of little bugs though. I started out on 90 gaunt lists. Then moved to when fexes could be elites and heavy lots of fexes and last edition I went with Trygons. This edition i'm still unsure what works, but the best list i've written with the models I own involves 2 Flyrants with talons, 2 Trygons, tervigon, gaunts, hive guard & zoanthropes. I usually go with big monsters as they don't die quick and also do hit alot of damage.
My problem with lots of gaunts is they don't hit that hard and die very easily, I could have another Trygon instead of a squad of gaunts you see, now tell me which would do more damage and which is less likely to die? I just fail to see why taking gaunts over monsters is worthwhile.
Leeroy
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Post by Winged Menace on Jul 29, 2012 18:21:43 GMT
Gaunts die easily. When you have lots of gaunts, they become quite daunting. It doesnt matter how quick they die when you have some backup fir them in assault. I've been happy with my gaunts. They are no longer a liability.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 29, 2012 18:30:26 GMT
Which is most likely to die? Well 20 t3 for 100 points, 200 points for 6 t6 wounds and a 3+ save. The gants win out with which is more durable. At half the cost, no matter how many s8 ap3 shots you shoot at the gants, they will still be standing. They score and they get cover more easily. They make for charge walls, model cover, and extra wounds for look out sir.
They get, for half the points, 40 attacks on the charge (termagants, mind you)
You look at what is "more destructive" when the reality is that this game is based on who has their models in the right place at the end of the game. Someone said in another thread and I liked the analogy... It's like playing chess. It doesn't matter how many of your opponents pieces you capture if your opponent gets in position for a checkmate. And gants are more useful.
You also look at what's more durable, but you dont consider points an number of wounds. Monstrous creatures die to low number of shots with high strength and no armor and long range, gants die to short range low strength, high volumes of fire
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Post by leeroy1986 on Jul 29, 2012 20:00:17 GMT
Depends on the opponent, but in most cases the Gaunts. Last edition with tanks they could just zoom around the board and the Gaunts couldn't catch them nor hurt them. Tyrants and Trygons could gun them down and so could Zoanthropes/Hive Guard. Hopefully with a meta change gaunts would be more effective.
Problem is(same with Genestealers) all it takes is a cheap squad of Space Marines to gun them down and that has always been my issue over the years. If that cheap squad of Space Marines was to shoot at a MC their weapons need 6's to wound them, except maybe 1 or 2 weapons.
Also more often than not the Space Marines tend to pass all of their saves annoyingly whereas against the MC they get no saves. My troops just tend to die vs their troops, but their everything else dies to everything else of mine, that's the way i've seen it happen over the past few years, but maybe this edition will be different, I guess I could try a gaunt heavy army.
But my biggest issue this Edition is flyers gaunts are caught with their pants down against them, whereas at least the Monstrous creatures can take pop shots and maybe get lucky.
Unfortunately there is more small arms fire out there than large arms fire, which is where my gaunts tend to die. Most of people playing Space Marines in my area their basic troops make a mockery of mine at shooting and in combat.
40 Attacks vs Space Marines that's 20 hits, maybe 7 wounds if you're lucky and normally maybe 2 marines die. Trygon or Tyrant hits 5/6 times when it charges 4-5 marines die and you will maybe take 1-2 wounds back. Next round gaunts only get half the attacks, you will kill 1 space marine if you're lucky whereas the monstrous creatures will kill maybe 1 less and win overtime whereas the gaunts lose overtime.
or that is what happens in my games and it was a massive problem for me. Assuming the gaunts could get anywhere near the Space Marines zipping around in their transports and remember Marines are practically fearless nowadays so they don't really die from morale, so the gaunts HAVE to kill them on the charge and all it takes is one bad round of rolling die and remember mostly you need 5's to wound, whereas TMC's it's 2+ normally.
Yes but in my experience if you put your gaunts in the right place they tend to get shot and die, which I wish they didn't, but all my games seem to be won or lost through monstrous creatures. I spent the first 3 years of my Tyranid life running 120+ tyranid models in 1500 Points and they just died died died.
Back then Hormagaunts had 12" assault range and fleet. I could maybe get them in assault turn 2 started on 30 models I lost maybe 10 by the time I got there wacking out 60 attacks I normally got 10 wounds 2-3 marines died and when they hit back maybe 5-6 gaunts died so it was just like banging your head against a brick wall. But with the Hive Node in there they got held up in combat eventually my Carnifexes then made it across the field before the gaunts almost all died and then ate the Marines. So the gaunts never killed anything they just tied them up.
After I switched to big bugs they took lots of shots some died some didn't they shot lots of marines down, shots lots of tanks down and ate them in combat, they just seemed alot more effective seem to rarely fail me, I don't know maybe it's just a coincidence. Ever since then though i've always played big bugs and always done alot better in tournaments with them.
My problem is the gaunts never get in that position because they always die, whereas the monstrous creatures might not die and kill stuff while my Tervigon generated gaunts can capture stuff.
Yeah and sadly there tends to be more of the latter. Whereas not many people have lots of guns that can take out TMC's very quickly.
Would you say only in this Edition? Last edition there was just too many tanks for them to even do any damage.
Anyway thanks for the input I want to try horde, but in ALL of the last Editions they just seem totally useless.
Leeroy
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 29, 2012 21:05:24 GMT
I wanted to start with this:
I can tell you right now that if they are getting shot at and die, that is NOT the right place. Just saying. 10 marines have 10 shots at 30" range with their bolters (or 18" rapidfire for a total of 20 shots) Please, before you try to correct my ranges, remember they can move and still shoot.
assuming they are in range turn 1 (they wont be, but for argument sake) it wont be rapidfire range. 10 shots against 10 gants needing 3's to hit and 3's to wound and you get 5+ cover (4 up if you have a wall in front of you from a ruin and you can go to ground for even more cover depending on how your termagants are made to perform. Devourers will likely deal with it, termagants vanilla will go to ground for a 3-4+ cover.
The 10 man unit we are talking about has a pretty heafty price tag itself, and is dedicated shooting. Nearly 200 points vanilla, and likely takes a powerfist and some melta or plasma in there. a unit of 10 gants is still 50 points.
Gants are the "pawns" in chess, they arent good at killing things, they are good at forcing people into positions by making the opponent take them out or holding a position from the opponent. They are very durable with cover. They are not very killy, and as a unit you can get 20 of for the price you can get many units of 5 for, its a good trade of.
I understand what your saying, I have noticed something similar happening everywhere (I have 3 different gaming groups). Tanks all became, really, what dark eldar tanks where like last edition. As a result, people are taking less and less transports. So, the overall need for anti tank is becoming less and less beyond fliers which die to volumes of fire and twin liked weapons and land raiders because they have 4 hull points. However, This will eventually even out. If they take away to much anti tank, the tanks will become massive in power again (you CAN glace tanks to death now, but it isnt a strategy... it takes too long) and as you say, anti infantry fire doesnt work well against T6 monstrous creatures.
I dont think this is the new "rule" of 6th edition that anti infantry fire is king and infantry dominate and there is no point to take mech. transports still add an extra 6" to your movement, tanks still have big guns, they are still immune to infantry for the most part... Just like 5th edition you till took infantry in a mech dominant environment, I predict people will start using mech again in a infantry heavy environment. And if MC's DO become as much of a problem and so much more of a threat than gants, people will start using more missiles again.
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In an edition where infantry seems like its the only option, tyranids win, because thats all we do is kill infantry. Hive Guard are are only real "good" anti transport, so we struggled last edition. If tyranids do become a dominant force (and I dont expect they will jump to a position of extreme power) people will start designing lists to deal with monstrous creatures.
I prefer balanced lists, having MC's, small dudes, and medium sized units to cover all fronts of combat. Hoards have never honestly appealed to me. I just like the idea of tons of dice (with 10 guys throwing 30 attacks at the opponent for dirt cheap and killing their unit which is smaller and costs more is just a great feeling.
My lists always have consisted of monstrous creatures, you need them for tyranids to pack a punch. Gants have advantages to them (going to ground and far higher amounts of wounds, scoring)
I do see your logic though, it was similar to what has been happening in the last editions. You have a scoring tervigan that makes gants, use them to make the scoring units instead of using of just taking gants. I agree with you for the most part, but I find devourers to be to invaluable as a gun to pass up, which is why I take 2 units of 15 devourers at 1750 at the moment.
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Post by bloodborne on Jul 29, 2012 21:56:16 GMT
if you are having issues playing gants as a horde list, I suggest you play a gunline ork army for a little bit, the tactics are very much the same. You need to use them defensively. By the by, ork players have been not only running shooty lists against MEQ armies, but it has been one of the more viable lists that orks have, and this is with orks shooting them at BS2... while they have more shots, we have a higher BS, same strength and weapons that actually have an AP(for all the good it does us). The thing you HAVE to remember about every list, is that there is a specific purpose in mind for each unit, and to that purpose, they do adamantly excel over other units that are tailored to other uses, but can essentially do the same thing.
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