3 quick questions.

[coredump]

I think there is a pretty clear indication that it is in effect.

Intervening models:
"If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit, it receives a 5+cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain."

I believe the key phrase for our purpose here is "in the same way as if it was behind terrain"

Which means we need to find out in what "way" do you get cover from being behind terrain.

Determining Cover Saves:
"If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save"

That is the 'way' that terrain provides a cover save..... so it is the 'same way' that intervening models provide a cover save.


Some folks are distracted by the "partially hidden" part of the rule, but the basic cover rules also start that way:
"Often, you'll find enemy models are partially hidden or obscured by terrain, also known as being in cover."
But the rules go on to define that you need 25% to qualify for a cover save.

But again, you need the 25% obscurement from only 1 of the firing models.





As for trading Psy powers, while I agree with what has been said above, it is all or none; you do have the option of splitting the choices between disciplines. For example: if you pay the 30 pts for the extra Tervi powers, and decide you trade them in; you have to trade all 3, but you can pick 1 from Bio, 1 from telek, 1 from telep, or any other combination.

[wisdomseyes1]

1) thanks for the answer
2)

As for trading Psy powers, while I agree with what has been said above, it is all or none; you do have the option of splitting the choices between disciplines. For example: if you pay the 30 pts for the extra Tervi powers, and decide you trade them in; you have to trade all 3, but you can pick 1 from Bio, 1 from telek, 1 from telep, or any other combination.

New that. Marines annoy me with divination. Reroll all to hits? Period? Basic power? Urg. That and then pull off a more powerful book on his second power

[coredump]

Yeah.... I smile a little whenever I think of Broodlords with access to Divination....

[ferro]

coredump:
I hear what you're saying about cover, but if you're correct in your interpretation of intervening units and the 25% rule, how do you reconcile the very next sentence in the rules: "Similarly, if a model fired through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer."
That sentence is what informs my interpretation that the 25% rule is dropped when intervening units are in play.

[coredump]

The space between the models counts as obscurement. Just like it did last edition. If the models, or the space between the models, covers 25% of the target model, it gets a cover save.

[killme304]

Everyone I've ever talked to agrees with coredumps logic, otherwise the rule stating you can look over a unit wouldn't make sense.

[coredump]

Well, it would still make sense. Ferro agrees with everything I am saying, including the space between, but feels that 'partially' is all it takes. So if obscured by 1% would get a cover save. You could still look 'over' the intervening unit.

[ferro]

Correct. Except this part still doesn't make sense to me:

Jul 25, 2012 23:30:02 GMT coredump said:

If the models, or the space between the models, covers 25% of the target model, it gets a cover save.

How can the empty space between models cover anything? The rules flat out tell us that a model 0% obscured still gets cover from the intervening unit.
Core, what you're saying sounds like the abstraction of various model heigths from a couple editions ago; a 'small' unit always counts as a certain height, and can't cover a bigger unit. I don't think that's right anymore.

It seems to me that our new rules tell us that shooting/targeting is always True Line of Sight and terrain covering 25% grants cover, but an intervening unit of any kind forces an abstraction--25% rule dropped.
I'm still not convinced.

[coredump]

This is not new. The 'empty space' obscured models in last edition also. It worked exactly the same way.
The empty space (gaps) counts as obscuring the target, because that is what the rules say it does; again, exactly like it did last edition. The gaps 'through' the intervening unit counts as cover, the space above does not.
If the target is obscured by an intervening unit, either the physical models or the space between models, then it provides a cover save "in the same way as if it were behind terrain" So if you pretend that the models, and the gaps between the models, were replaced by terrain, that is how you determine the cover save.

There is no abstraction of heights, you use the actual LoS of the models, and the actual heights of the intervening unit. If the model/gaps combo covers at least 25% of the target model from at least one of the shooting models, the target gets a cover save. Nothing abstract about it, which is why my very first post said the answers will depend on the actual set up of the models and terrain.


Oh, and the rules do not tell us that a 0% obscured model gets cover, it says that even if you can see it through the gaps, it will still get a cover save. That is because the gaps count as obscurement.