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Post by kippawah on Jul 23, 2012 19:52:27 GMT
I've actually not run into this issue before, but I played a Relic game against the Orks this weekend (1250 pts) and lost synapse in the final turns, with 2 squads of Hormagaunts. One was a 16 models, the other, 4 models.
Ork player had Burnas on the relic, at this point, and i'm within charge distance... He used his overwatch on the big unit, and fried them.
At any rate, the question I had: When units are affected by IB - Feed, do you still control them as normal? Do they have to run at the closest enemy? Do they HAVE to charge? I figured it made sense, fluff-wise, for them to charge into the Burnas due to loss of synapse, but I had never actually run into having this problem before.
Thanks.
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 23, 2012 20:06:31 GMT
No you do not loose control of them. They don not have to charge. However they are also no longer fearless.
Fluff wise without the hive mind telling them to charge into a wall of flame self preservation kicks in and says not to do it.
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Post by Major Chrispy on Jul 23, 2012 20:25:53 GMT
No you do not loose control of them. They don not have to charge. However they are also no longer fearless. Fluff wise without the hive mind telling them to charge into a wall of flame self preservation kicks in and says not to do it. All the logic and correct ruling in one post XD |
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Post by coredump on Jul 23, 2012 21:42:27 GMT
If out of synapse, they roll for IB. If failed, they Rage. There are absolutely no downsides to Rage for a HG.
OTOH, in your above example, if both broods were in range... and you wanted to charge. First charge with the brood of 4. He will Overwatch them, and then you can charge the 16 safely.
If he declines to OW the 4, and they make it into CC; then he can't OW the 16.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 24, 2012 2:14:08 GMT
If out of synapse, they roll for IB. If failed, they Rage. There are absolutely no downsides to Rage for a HG. OTOH, in your above example, if both broods were in range... and you wanted to charge. First charge with the brood of 4. He will Overwatch them, and then you can charge the 16 safely. If he declines to OW the 4, and they make it into CC; then he can't OW the 16. But over watch is rolled after the charge distance is declared but before charge moves are made, right? Or am I misreading how it works. |
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Post by carnogaunt on Jul 24, 2012 2:17:33 GMT
If out of synapse, they roll for IB. If failed, they Rage. There are absolutely no downsides to Rage for a HG. OTOH, in your above example, if both broods were in range... and you wanted to charge. First charge with the brood of 4. He will Overwatch them, and then you can charge the 16 safely. If he declines to OW the 4, and they make it into CC; then he can't OW the 16. But over watch is rolled after the charge distance is declared but before charge moves are made, right? Or am I misreading how it works. 1) Declare charge. 2) Resolve Overwatch. 3) Roll for charge distance. 4) Move models if the charge succeeds. Edit- You don't declare all of your charges at once if that's what you mean. You repeat the above process for each unit one at a time. |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 24, 2012 3:52:37 GMT
But over watch is rolled after the charge distance is declared but before charge moves are made, right? Or am I misreading how it works. 1) Declare charge. 2) Resolve Overwatch. 3) Roll for charge distance. 4) Move models if the charge succeeds. Edit- You don't declare all of your charges at once if that's what you mean. You repeat the above process for each unit one at a time. Ah, it seems my friends and I got the order wrong then. Oh well, I need to review the rulebook to see why I thought that |
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Post by fleetofclaw on Jul 24, 2012 5:09:13 GMT
this is one of the saving graces about overwatch. Try and charge in tandem, throw the gribblies at the unit to absorb the overwatch shots, throw the killy stuff after.
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Post by Jestar on Jul 24, 2012 5:18:13 GMT
Agreed. Always good to charge with 2 units where possible. Especially since your good unit won't lose out if you lose a heap of gaunts because we don't have no-retreat wounds anymore. Also, as long as one model from the second unit makes base contact you're fine for their attacks, and you wont lose out. Example:
EEEEEEEEEEE
TTTTTTTTTG
GGGGGGGGG
Where E is Enemy, T is Termagant, and G is Genestealer. All Genestealers will still get to attack because they are within 2" of a friendly model in base contact, and when allocating wounds, most will go on Termagants because they are the models in base contact. You just need that one Genestealer on the end in contact with the enemy, and you effectively have a protection wall in close combat too.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 24, 2012 5:30:30 GMT
Unfortunately, charging with 2 units so one takes the shots is a tactic that equally hurts us as much as it helps us. It is now taking 2 units to Kill 1 rather than the old 2 to kill 2. I am, at least right now, more inclined to avoid doing that unless the unit has enough shots to be worrisome (tau, crons, us, special exceptions) because going by that tactic really cuts down on our killing power. And that isn't really something I like losing.
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Post by kippawah on Jul 24, 2012 15:53:51 GMT
Thanks for the replies. Assaulting/Charging definitely requires more tactics in this edition, in order to accomplish desired effect.
I mean, it's really discouraging to try to assault a shooty unit, with an assault unit. You've got to either have a bullet sponge and a backup, or return fire with something that can hurt them (i.e. avoid charging).
In this case, Burnas. Other cases like SM, Tau, Necrons.
Yea, Necrons. I find them terribly hard to compete against. No psykers, T4/5, rapid fire bolters, etc. I have yet to win a game against the Necrons. Came close in 5th, but the reset button has been hit.
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 24, 2012 20:12:02 GMT
They don't really require much more than successful charges required in the 5th edition. Back in the olden days of 5th edition people complained about charging units in cover, as if those units couldn't be pinned, forced to fall back, or locked down by another unit. And that was without considering the Tyranid units with assault grenades.
Now it's even easier to lock down a unit in cover with stuff like Rippers, and absorb any overwatch to boot. All they have to do is make base-contact (see p.23). I mean, yes, they may all die, and hilariously easily where templates are concerned, but when three Ripper Swarms are worth two Burna Boyz, and when your Genestealer brood connects unimpeded, then it's worth it. Especially since you can charge that one unit with two units in the same turn.
Then there were the units you didn't want to charge anyways, the Grey Knight Purifiers in particular: they were easy enough to shoot up. Ditto for Burnas, or Incinerator-bearing Grey Knights, or what-have-you. Tyranids have stupid amounts of firepower if you're willing to risk it.
I think that charges with suicide units like Rippers, Gargoyles, Termagants, and so on, are going to be essential to a pro-active Tyranid strategy. Aside from setting up mop-up units, it will prevent your opponent from using all that firepower on valuable units.
Remember, you can put stuff like Catalyst and Spore Clouds on your Hormagaunts, as well as move a Synapse-bearing unit back within 12" of them before they charge, to make them Fearless. I think it's going to take lots of teeth-gritting as well to learn to make disordered charges where Tyranids will be able to kill lots of enemy units at once thanks to a minimal win, and then Sweeping Advance (certain Genestealer powers such as Aura of Despair should come in handy).
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 24, 2012 21:10:21 GMT
Unfortunately, charging with 2 units so one takes the shots is a tactic that equally hurts us as much as it helps us. It is now taking 2 units to Kill 1 rather than the old 2 to kill 2. I am, at least right now, more inclined to avoid doing that unless the unit has enough shots to be worrisome (tau, crons, us, special exceptions) because going by that tactic really cuts down on our killing power. And that isn't really something I like losing. Its more about using 150pts to kill 200pts. Or anouther way is using 2 to kill 1 when you outnumber you enemy 3 units to 1. With the missions now killing you opponents units only matters in 1/6th of the missions. Now the game is "render ineffective", not kill. If I remove all your scoring units while keeping mine I have rendered your army ineffective as long as I make sure I control at least one objective. Your 600+ pt deathstar doesn't matter if I keep throwing gaunts at it the entire game so it can't do anything else. If they only killed 200pts of gaunts, your opponent just wasted a bunch of points. I don't take a lot to buff up my horms or termiguants anymore because I need thier bodies more than any killing they can do. I just need enough of them to keep a unit out of my hair for the game or to delay them long enough for one of my killing units (Stealers, MCs, shrikes or raveners) to wipe them out. I then charge whatever I have left of the gaunts into the next unit. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 25, 2012 7:34:22 GMT
You can also multi assault with your gaunts. Hit two units, which could free up two targets for two other assault units. (some caveats apply...)
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Post by atrocity on Jul 25, 2012 8:10:43 GMT
From what I understand you declare all charges at once and the enemy can chose which unit to overwatch against. So charging a smaller unit to "save" a big one should not work.
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