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Post by Rahab on Jul 25, 2012 21:44:46 GMT
Ok, let me take another stab at this list, in light of recent revelations:
Tyrant: LW&BS, talons, toxin, 2+ shell
3 Tyrant's guards: LW
10 termagant x2
Tervigon x2: Claws, cluster spine, toxin
Harpies x2: venom cannons & cluster spines
8 Ymgarl
3 Carnifex: 2x devourers
Trygon Prime: toxin
Tyranofex: Spray, Cluster Spines, larvae
I think this makes a decent compromise between the theme I'm going for and the playability issues you guys are bringing up. I can justify losing the warriors for the sake of another MC troop choice, though, again, if the tervigons spat out hormagaunts it wouldn't have been a debate in the first place. The craplings come in increments of twelve, so d'you think five boxes will cover things? Hnngh, this is exactly what I wanted to avoid, but needs must...
As far as options go: With no warriors, I feel like the Trygon has to be prime for adequate warp shadow coverage. I toyed with the idea of giving the Tyrant some shooting, but now I'm leaning toward H2H exclusively and just running him till he gets something.
I see that adrenal glands just give +1 S on the charge. Since the craplings all have guns, I dropped the glands from their Tervigon vectors. I went with the big claws on the Tervigons since they are I1 all the time anyway; let me know if this is suboptimal.
The inclusion of the harpies will depend on the aesthetic appeal of the forthcoming model you folks mentioned. Assuming it isn't a travesty or that the kit doesn't make something else interesting, are the linked heavy venom cannons preferable to the linked stranglethorn? I'd think the potential decreased scatter might make higher strength preferable to larger radius of effect.
Good to have the heads up about only using one save (except that FNP appears to bend the rule a bit, if I understand correctly). Do the shield guys seriously have a 3+ ward? How can these monsters get them without being bludgeoned?
Gotta say, this has been a most informative and welcoming community. Cheers to all!
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Post by killme304 on Jul 26, 2012 14:13:29 GMT
You still want to hit terminators with things that force invulnerable saves instead of armor saves (all MC do this automatically in close combat). 33% chance to fail a save is better than 16% by quite a bit. Terminators aren't cheap, most of those units costs as much as a Trygon, or even more.
Drop the toxin sacs on the Tyrant and replace it with Old Adversary. It makes it so you reroll 1s to hit and wound. Since you are a S6 MC, you mostly wound on 2+, so you will end up rerolling all your failed wounds this way. While it also makes your Scything Talons useless too, if your going for cheap tyrant they are still free. Bonus points: It makes the Tyrant Guard and anything else within 6" ALSO do this, making it even more powerful.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 26, 2012 17:25:21 GMT
If it pooped out hormagaunts, I wouldn't have used it cause hormagaunts suck  ^didnt like hormagaunts last edition ecause of rage. ^^doesnt like hormagaunts this edition because of fleet and assault rules. ^^^is an opinion, take it with a grain of sault I don't like this, the part about the tyrant anyway. MC devourers have quickly become one of the best guns in the game and easily the best answer to fliers angling side a transport killer almost as equally as impaler cannons have been in the past. Going for close combat is a noble tyranid ideal, but I still think shooting is worthwhile. You could give her a gun and run every turn you are not in range for the guns. Adrenal glands lost a lot I power on MC's because of smash rules ad on infantry because it doesnt give an initiative boost anymore. My only additional suggestestion for tervigan is to add psychic powers catalyst and onslaught to roll 3 dice on biomancy OR just catalyst for feel no pain. Last edition the prefered gun was strangle thorn, and I don't think that has changed. FnP isn't a save, so yea it bends the rules. And you do it the same way we deal with all marines... Don't worry about penitrating it, worry more about making them make a giant number of saves. We don't just look at marines and say "3+ armor? No ap3 in the army? Well... We are screwed" Tyranids have some of the most powerful anti infantry in the game for the sole reason... We get lots if dice. Read independent character. Read look out sir. Now, get a tyranid prime and attach him to this brood, where your opponent will proceed to rage.
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Post by Rahab on Jul 27, 2012 3:38:42 GMT
A few more points of clarification, then:
Could anyone explain/clarify how "wound allocation tricks" between the Prime and a unit works? It seems kind of shady, but it almost looks like this is exactly how GW wants it played. And, is regeneration needed to make it function ideally?
Since the Tervigon can only cast one spell per turn, is it worth the points buying additional powers? Seems like dropping Dominion for a roll on the Biomancy table and keeping Catalyst might be an option.
If the Tyrant basically ignores armor anyway, is lash whip/bone sword even worth taking? I really like the look of the weapon on the model, and it doesn't appear they give you enough devourer pieces to double up on them, but 12 S6 shots does sound good...
As far as a model for the Prime, do they sell something in finecast that could be pressed into service, or would I need to buy some warriors and convert one?
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Post by maeloke on Jul 27, 2012 4:44:19 GMT
Wound allocation:
Prime takes point in the unit. Incoming hits are received, and allocated to closest model until it dies. Well, you can either choose to have the prime take those hits, or attempt a 'Look out Sir!' roll. On a 2+, the wound can be instead allocated to any model in the unit within 6" of the prime. With wussy troops, its a way to keep your big guy intact. With multi-wound troops, it's a way to divvy up the hits so nobody dies until everyone is down to 1 wound. With regen on the unit, you regain some of those lost wounds.
Buying extra powers with the tervigon is done in order to purchase more rolls on the charts, or have access to the conventional powers. You either drop everything for chart powers, or nothing - can't have your cake and eat it too, I'm afraid.
The tyrant wants a lash whip and bonesword because the lash whip ensures the tyrant strikes first, or at least simultaneously when assaulting into cover. The bonesword causes instant death regardless of wounds, etc, so it can be handy vs other resilient troops. Like someone else's carnifex. That said, I've often had equivalent luck with double boneswords.
There is no Prime model; you're pretty much stuck modding one with a warrior + bits. Every nid sprue comes with a few, so I'd expect you have plenty to work with.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 27, 2012 4:55:33 GMT
Exactly the above, but I wanted to add: the lash whip on the tyrant is probably the best "free" upgrade any of our units can get. The lash whip basically says that we win in close combat. It is the best way to deal with threats, for the most part. Not everything is faster than the tyrant, but the things that are will destroy the tyrant without it.
I am not going to lie and say its a nececity, but it is valuable. You might decide you want more devourer shots (as many have taken to doing) Just remember with those 12 shots, your giving up a psychic shooting attack. Something to consider
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Post by amareis on Jul 27, 2012 13:53:56 GMT
Awesome thread  Great to see a newcomer being greeted with good advice and sound tactics. This is almost a must read for nid players of 6th ed. |
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Post by Rahab on Jul 28, 2012 0:34:01 GMT
Most excellent thread indeed! I hate rushing into a new game blind and discovering that the theme for my force is totally unworkable too late (Malifaux, I'm looking at you...) You good folks have saved me a lot of time, money, and frustration; cheers all around!
So, here's my introductory shopping list to get a 1000 point army together and try a few games:
Tyrant
Carnifex
Trygon
Tervigon
2x Termagant box
Harpy (by the time the others are painted and ready for the table, it should be available)
With these kits I can make...
Hive Fleet Dagon:
Tyrant: LW & BS, TL devourer, 2+ shell; (Paroxysm, Leech Essence)
10 Termagant
Tervigon: cluster spine; (biomancy roll?)
Harpy: TL stranglethorn, cluster spine
Carnifex: 2x TL devourer, frag spine
Trygon: toxin
That's dead on 1K. I'm sure there's more optimal choices at this point level, but it gets me most of the monsters I want and will serve as a foundation as the fleet accumulates additional biomass. There was an extra 5 left over, so I went with the frag spines; talons on the tervigon was the other alternative.
The tervigon won't need dominion, will it? If can keep the Tyrant front and center I think I'll have enough synapse. Speaking of the Tyrant, the spells from our codex seem pretty good. As was pointed out, with only one shooting weapon, it'll not be wasting a power every turn.
One last question about the wound allocation. Am I getting it right that I can spread the wounds out between different multi-wound models in a unit only as long as I do it with look out sir? In Fantasy, if I have some minotaurs or something, I have to allocate wounds to the unit as a whole, and remove an entire minotaur whenever possible. I'll have to re-read the brb when I get home, but I thought the same principal applied here if there's no independent character.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 28, 2012 1:45:19 GMT
You are a bit low on synapse, so you actually might need dominion. Fexen wouldn't normally care, because rage is beneficial, but feed also says no shooting, which makes fexen sad. It may matter, and it may not based on how far you get across the board before your synapse dies.
Wound allocation question: as it stands, you may allocate the wound that LOS! moved to any model within 6", no restrictions. That means you can allocate them to different models for wound allocation tricks, causing them to survive longer. Your army has no characters as it sands, though, so I don't see how it matters. (unless HQ's by default are characters, I have to go back and check but I believe characters are only models with a separate profile in a units section)
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Post by Rahab on Jul 28, 2012 16:41:23 GMT
The independent character stuff will matter once the army gets a little bigger; I'm not sure I'd add a Prime at all if the wound allocation gets FAQ'd/amended. At the moment, it doesn't strike me as "Rules As Intended", but the wording in the book can't be argued with. Since the Tyrant joins its guards "exactly as if it were an independent character", does this mean it can use LOS too? The guards wouldn't be much of a shield wall otherwise...
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 28, 2012 16:53:08 GMT
The independent character stuff will matter once the army gets a little bigger; I'm not sure I'd add a Prime at all if the wound allocation gets FAQ'd/amended. At the moment, it doesn't strike me as "Rules As Intended", but the wording in the book can't be argued with. Since the Tyrant joins its guards "exactly as if it were an independent character", does this mean it can use LOS too? The guards wouldn't be much of a shield wall otherwise... The woud allocation games last edition was way worse. If you took different weapons on your models last edition, you would do the same thing + more. Ork nobs were infamous for not dying. Now they REQUIRE a warboss and it might not work? Sounds right to me. Well, if not right, then a lot better. Tyranid primes with carnifexen had wound allocation tricks last edition as well. They aren't new. An the FAQ explains that a tyrant is an independent character for the purposes of guard and look out sir, challanges, ext. |
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Post by Rahab on Jul 29, 2012 21:45:16 GMT
OK, I'm buying the models mentioned above this week. I won't play until they're painted and based (or I'll never get them painted and based), so it could be a while before I get a game in; I'll do a battle report once the fleet has finished spawning.
Once again, thanks everyone for all the helpful responses (particularly Wisdomeyes1 for taking on a lot of the Q&A). Hive Fleet Dagon bows before the gestalt wisdom of the Hive Mind!
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Post by vecuu on Jul 31, 2012 13:55:45 GMT
Welcome to the Hive! As a seasoned WFB player, I'm sure I don't need to remind you of this, but the single most important thing to 40k or any form of tabletop gaming is to practice and get a feel for your army. 40k as a whole tends to revolve around mission objectives. Sure, you'll auto-win if you table your opponent, but our army is mostly short to mid range shooting and close combat, so that doesn't necessarily happen often (or at least not as often as it will with a long range shooting army). You can get two models away from tabling your opponent, but if he has more objective points when the game ends, he'll still win. It's just something to keep in the back of your mind. Thrashing and eating things is fun, but I advise you to always be aware of the missions that were rolled at the start of the game, and, from turn one, focus on how to accumulate those points. Hope you enjoy Nids |
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