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Post by Rahab on Jul 23, 2012 3:14:40 GMT
Hi, I'm new here.
I'm a veteran WHFB player, but I've never touched 40K and I'd like to figure out a list or two before I start buying any models. I don't play competitively, but I also don't want to get blown off the table by all and sundry, either.
I'm looking to cram as many monsters into a 2500 point list as possible (2500 is standard for Fantasy at my store; not sure how that translates to 40K), without mindlessly spamming Tervigons. Here's what I came up with from the latest codex and this forum (keep in mind I have no idea as to the efficacy of most of the weapon options):
Tyrant: LW&BS, Venom Cannon, toxin, 2+ armor
3x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips
6x Warriors: LW&BS, deathspitters, toxin, venom cannon
12x Termagant
Tervigon: claws, toxin, gland, cluster spine
Harpy: heavy venom, stinger salvo
8x Ymgarls
3x Carnifex: 2x devourers
Trygon Prime: toxin
Tyranofex: Rupture cannon, cluster spine, electro grubs
Basically, I want to minimize the number of little craplings running around the board, while still having enough "scoring" units to compete. I watched a game where some Ymgarls appeared in a big piece of forest behind a sniper unit and I've been hooked on the imagery ever since. Other than that, I just want to model big, scary monsters and let them kill things.
I'm not sold entirely on the Warrior unit. If I'm reading this correctly, anything S8 or higher is going to splatter a very expensive model, and a template might get them all in one go. I do love the models, though; any advice on how to make them work would be much appreciated.
If Tervigons could birth out Hormagaunts, I wouldn't have any reservations about taking them. As is, I hate the Termagant models, and I'd really like to keep them to a minimum. How many models will I typically need to field just the one Tervigon?
Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance for any responses. Long live the Hive Mind!
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 23, 2012 3:51:27 GMT
How can you hate temagants? They are so lovable ^-^ (I have always been a fan fan of them over homogaunts, personally)
Amarican 40k is about 1750 average, English being 1850. Usually. I know WHFB has massively bigger points than 40k usually.
1) heavy venom cannon I do not believe to be worth it's points, even in this edition it isn't very reliable as a tank killer and strangle thorn cannon is better for infantry, but our codex kills infantry without issues.
2) as you said yourself, warriors are fragile. You can do one of 2 things, convert them to give guard using gene stealer heads, carnifex carapaces, and big guns.. Or put them in a mycetic spore and use that to get them closer and avoid early game threats while also gaining a model (spore and/or warriors) in the enemy deployment zone for the behind the lines secondary objective. Both work.
3) trygons run better in pairs. Also, with 6th edition rukes people have taken a shining to keeping trygons out of synapse (making the prime upgrade even weaker than it was last edition) because feed is now a positive thing and the only reason synapse exists for those models is to maintain fearless.
4) desiccator (wounds on a 2+) thorax swarm is far better than electroshock. Ap 5, unlike in fantasy, is laughable in 40k. In 40k, you ignore it or you don't and outside orks and Tyraids, the lowest armor you will see is usually 4+ an most armies contain 3+ and 2+ primarily. Ap5 is, in a way, almost the same as saying ap-. Then you have average toughness is 4 not 3. So, yea.
5) rupture cannon is not very reliable unless you have another one. And with only 3 heavy support slots, it's hard to justify both trygons and a rupture cannon tyrano.
6) might want a tyranid prime for those fexen to play wound allocation tricks using look out sir with. Other than that, for your theme, I won't question the massive points on 1 unit.
7) harpy has a twin liked venom cannon, which does make it more reliable. It did get a buff being a flying monstrous creature this edition, which may make it worth taking.
8) if you are planning on replacing powers for biomancy, your tervigan build is Okay. I assume you won't want to spawn many gants and the puspose it does seem to fill suggests to take away adrenal glands. *I* play tervigans in a defensive roll, to capture objectives and such, spawn gants when I NEED them, never more (expect on the last turn) and I always use it to give my guys feel no pain.
9) you will want on average 27 termagants in reserve for spawns if you want to spawn every turn (and if you spawn last turn for the advantage or in situaltions where you want to screen so your opponent doesnt charge you instead of spawning every turn you won't need more than 18 extra)
10) long posts here are fine. The hive is one of the few forums you will consistently get long detailed responses and usually lots of them in a short period of time.
That's what I have for now, take from it what you will
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Post by paxmiles on Jul 23, 2012 4:17:52 GMT
I've actually seen several 2500pt lists get posted in my local forum. Seems that between the double FOCs, allies, and fortifications, 2500 is a good number for a balanced game.
As for the various weapon options and units, I strongly suggest starting a thread for each one in question, which should get you a more focused answer about their role in the army.
Under 6th, you need scoring units (2 troops other than rippers), AT, AA, AP, an HQ, and it helps to have psychic defense.
As a tyranid player, you'll find that you also need units to allow the rest of the army to get in range, as the army as a whole is lacking in shooting (it can be done, but bugs are usually stronger at closer ranges).
How you do these things is entirely up to you, but each and every list should have these.
-Scoring units are troops, with the exception of the ripper swarms and the pods, as each have rules saying they don't count. Each type of scoring troop is viable, but they do depend greatly on what other things you bring.
-AT, Anti-tank: Means units with high strength weapons or on their base profile, which can destroy enemy vehicles. Without anything special, you need at least S4 to glance an enemy vehicle (4+d6 is the roll to pen, armor value 10 being the lowest). Realistically, you only need a few weapons to take down AV13-14, but you'll want lots of weapons that can cope with AV 10-12 (because these values are often transports).
-AA is Anti-Aircraft, and is a new contender for 40k. It is basically AV10-11 vehicles, but only 1/6 shots will even hit, so this one benefits from volume fire much more than the AT one. Other issue is that flyers can't be assaulted, which greatly limits a pure melee force.
-AP is Anti-Personnel, which covers the killing of enemy models with a toughness. The term is often synonymous with anti-horde weapons, as volume fire works well for both hordes and elite infantry. Tyranids excel in this area and only the most elite/specialized force will find issues.
-HQ is required, but is also often where synapse is found. Synapse makes up for the low leadership on most of our units. It allows us to regroup and to tarpit enemy units.
-Psychic defense is mostly the shadows in the warp power. It can also be the Deathleaper (the -d3 leadership is great to weaken lone psykers), or broodlords using their aura of despair. You can also often solve psychic issues by killing the enemy psykers, which requires no real special skills for us bugs.
Beyond this, it is a matter of playstyle. To explain playstyle, think about how you'd react in a fight in real life. Each person does this differently, or at least they add personal touches.
Do you fight by running in bloodlust to your enemy? Do you take the damage and attempt to tire them out? Run away? Dirty fighting? Honorable? Hostages? Blackmail? Words only? Do you fight to win? To cripple them? To kill? To just have them leave you alone? Fight only because you were forced into it?
40k can do most of these things if you can translate them into the game. The tyranid army is very flexible, but players really aren't. Find you playstyle and you will enjoy the game much more - perhaps you may even win...
-Pax
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Post by squash on Jul 23, 2012 6:25:30 GMT
You'll love the similarities the new edition has with Fantasy. Global psychic power tables you roll on, variable charge distances, challenges, free shooting against chargers, it's the most Fantasy inspired edition yet. But keep in mind that shooting still dominates the game in a way that it didn't in Fantasy.
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Post by Rahab on Jul 24, 2012 3:19:16 GMT
Thanks for all the feedback, folks. I'll try to make some more specific posts, but there's a couple things I was wondering in the mean time.
I'm thinking the best bet for the Warriors to live long enough to do something is to either drop in a spore, or to outflank with the Hive commander ability. Any advantages to either?
Can the Rupture Cannon do anything reliably, or is the Tyranofex better off with Acid Spray or the 20-shot hive attack?
I was mainly leaning toward a Trygon Prime due to getting some shadow in the warp psy defense in the back field, but 40 points is 40 points. Is it really not worth it?
One thing I still don't get: Why don't individual models have their own movement values? Doesn't make any kind of sense that all these wildly different troops and creatures move at one fixed, predetermined rate.
Thanks again.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 24, 2012 3:43:53 GMT
Spore will allow them to consistently arrive in areas and positions favorable to you, and give you "line breaker" if they are still alive at the end of the game.
I forgot the tfex had the 20 fleshborer gun, because it is honestly such a huge joke. Never use it. Acid spray on a single tfex is likely a better option if you are using the tfex (alongside my original suggestion for 2+ to wound thorax swarm over the electroshock one which is never the best option, unless your against guard)
The guns will not be used except in maybe over watch, but not many models are aassaulting anymore, and even less are willing to assault a trygon and expect to live. Psychic defense is something to consider, but you have every synapse creature doing that. 40 points gets you a lot in our army, so for the most part, yea not worth it. And, there is no downside to being out of synapse with a trygon, and being out of synapse means 8 attacks on the charge.
An for your last question, first and second edition models did have movement values. They got rid of that, and several others, because it was near indistinguishable from fantasy. In 40k, it does make more sense, though. We have base speeds for our models being all the same, and then certain models will have special rules to make them move faster or slower than normal.
Plus, most of the armies in 40k are different factions of the same armies. Space marines are all trained in the same way so assumed to have the same speed, which is assumed the same speed that the eldar can move (and in turn, dark eldar). Tau, don't know enough about them to say, but they have jump packs which I would guess help them maintain the speed of the enemy. Plague marines (or plaguebearers for more familiarity) have slow and purposeful to represent they are slower than other models (in this edition, they can't run. Last edition they always moved through difficult terrain), so while they are moving at "infantry" speed, they have impediments.
That's what I have for now, take from it what you will
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Post by NidsAndMarines on Jul 24, 2012 11:27:40 GMT
@wisdomeyes1. Surely raging trygons get 9 attacks on the charge? Or have I read 'rage' wrong?
'Nid nation.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 24, 2012 15:18:08 GMT
I'm with you in hating the termagant model. Ugly little mofo has forced me into the realm of noncompetitive, because you need them to play tervigons and vice versa.
About your list: I know the big monsters seem good, but you really should bump up your troop count, or you'll be left wanting in actual scoring games. This is especially true if your Tervigon gives out early.
I like warriors, but in general, 'nids are a bad army to pile upgrades on. Warriors especially become inordinately expensive if you kit them out like your list has them, and 60 points is too many for a figure that dies to a single strength 8 hit.
I recommend cutting toxin sacs and LW/BS from your warrior unit, and picking up a second unit of warriors. If you like, make the second unit CC-focused and skip the deathspitters. The point is to have another unit that can hold an objective of its own accord, because gants and tervigons are obnoxiously codependent.
You've already got a ton of shooting, so I would recommend taking out the tyrannofex and replacing it with a 2nd trygon w/ toxin sacs - they're much better for pressuring an opponent. I would keep the first trygon as a Prime, whatever wisdomeyes says... the extra shooting and synapse can be handy, but it's even more critical for front line Shadow In The Warp. Psykers are seeing a renaissance, and you can't let your opponent have that kind of fun. Trygons will seldom Feed, and only net 1 bonus attack anyhow.
I'm assuming you're going to be running your Prime with your shootyfex unit. Consider giving them all regeneration - with the Look Out Sir wound allocation options now available, you can make that unit more resilient than ever.
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Post by Rahab on Jul 25, 2012 3:55:33 GMT
Hmm, a lot to think about here.
One of the things I'm worried about running into is elite H2H units, such as the hammer & shield marines, who appear to have a 2+ armor and 5+ ward save. Even with my high volume of shots, I'd still like an ace on the line to get through their armor, and Bone Sword seems to be one of the only things we have that reliably does it. If I cut the LW/BS from the warriors, what are my other options?
Bioplasma looks fantastic on paper, but it would cut my volume of shooting way down. I wish the three carnifexen didn't need to have the same options. Regeneration sounds good, but 25 points a model could buy a lot of other things...
Efficiency wise, I'd agree that another Trygon offers a better value, but I really like the aesthetic of the Tyranofex model. If I can find a way to make it semi-playable, I've gotta go for it. Thanks for the heads up about not using the flesh borer hive attack on him; from a fantasy perspective, 20 S4 shots sounds pretty good. I'm realizing the extent of the dissimilarities a little at a time.
The local scene here still seems to have a lot of vehicles. Can I count on rupture and venom cannons to get them while the monsters close for H2H, or do I need to invest in the ubiquitous impaler cannon things to have a chance?
One more thing: has the jury ruled in favor of the winged Tyrant without reservation, or will my land based 2+ armor version suffice in most cases?
Sorry for the barrage of questions. You guys have been a huge help so far, so thanks again.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 25, 2012 4:52:56 GMT
Hmm, a lot to think about here. One of the things I'm worried about running into is elite H2H units, such as the hammer & shield marines, who appear to have a 2+ armor and 5+ ward save. Even with my high volume of shots, I'd still like an ace on the line to get through their armor, and Bone Sword seems to be one of the only things we have that reliably does it. If I cut the LW/BS from the warriors, what are my other options? Bioplasma looks fantastic on paper, but it would cut my volume of shooting way down. I wish the three carnifexen didn't need to have the same options. Regeneration sounds good, but 25 points a model could buy a lot of other things... Efficiency wise, I'd agree that another Trygon offers a better value, but I really like the aesthetic of the Tyranofex model. If I can find a way to make it semi-playable, I've gotta go for it. Thanks for the heads up about not using the flesh borer hive attack on him; from a fantasy perspective, 20 S4 shots sounds pretty good. I'm realizing the extent of the dissimilarities a little at a time. The local scene here still seems to have a lot of vehicles. Can I count on rupture and venom cannons to get them while the monsters close for H2H, or do I need to invest in the ubiquitous impaler cannon things to have a chance? One more thing: has the jury ruled in favor of the winged Tyrant without reservation, or will my land based 2+ armor version suffice in most cases? Sorry for the barrage of questions. You guys have been a huge help so far, so thanks again. Good news on TH/SS terminators: All monstrous creatures basically ignore armor. That includes your Tyrant, Tervigon, Tyrannofex, trygon, and carnifexen - it's enough to make a TeQ army cry, and certainly enough to not worry about having extra boneswords amongst the troops. Skip the bio plasma. The effects of one bio-plasma shot are unilaterally worse than 6 shots off a twin-linked brainleech devourer. If you're going with the tyrannofex, take the acid spray. The real shortcoming with the fleshborer hive is the range of 12" - for 70 points, you could have six devilgants that put out more shots at better range than your 250-point model. The rupture cannon is a trap in the opposite direction: the huge range makes you think the tfex is a back-line weapons platform, but it only will average one hit per turn with that gun - it's nearly impossible for it to pay for itself at that rate. It's better off advancing and providing mixed-role support and drawing weapons fire. Which is great, because the acid spray is the most effective weapon it gets. Great for hitting units in cover before you assault with your tyrant and guard. Note that the spray is also usable in overwatch now  Speaking of tryrants, your walking tyrant is fine. With all the monsters in your force, he'll actually seem pretty low profile. Wings are trendy now because of the new flyer rules, but flyrants seem to end up being weapons platforms anyhow, and you already have tons of those. 2+ armor saves also got better in the new edition, and he'll still carve up anything he closes with. Venom and rupture cannons are terrible answers to vehicles, but you won't have a problem with them anyhow. With 7 monstrous creatures in the army, you should be able to punch any of the slow tanks to death with your creatures using Smash, and all your s5-6 weaponry will make swiss cheese out of the faster, lighter things like skimmers. Deathspitters and containment spines will do your ranged vehicle killing. The trygon prime can pop up behind a tank and easily glance av 10 to death with containment spines, while fexes can pull off a similar trick from the front. Feel free to skip the regeneration notion - it's more of a funny gimmick than a reasonable strategy, here. In an army with fewer MCs, it would be a way of maximizing t6 wounds, but you're definitely saturated for targets of that description |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 25, 2012 5:18:24 GMT
Uhhhhh, @op th/SS have a 3++ invuln, due to their storm sheilds. Terminators that dot have storm sheilds are exactly as he said in the quote, easy to deal with. The 3++ is a different story, being very very difficult in close combat.
High volumes of fire to force saves before dealing with them in close combat is advised. If they ate after yur tervigan, to avoid letting them charge it, you can spawn gants in the way to make sort of a charge wall. The gants might take one with them if they are lucky, but it more gives you a chance to shoot at them for one more turn and be on the charge when dealing with them.
Bone swords aren't the answer. The models that use them die instantly to the hammers. And they are expensive models at that. Tyranids lack ap outside close combat, so we rely on just forcing saves onto models to make them fail and it works similarly well to just ignoring it altogether. Terminators have always been problematic, but they are by no means impossible to beat.
As the post above me says, venom cannons aren't needed and your army has many MC's which should take care of any vehicles problems (which this edition got a LOT weaker, you can actually FEEL the lack of tension in the air when you are a 5th edition player like me and you can kill a vehicle without trying.)
If you feel you want more ranged anti vehicles, hive guard are amazing, destroying transports with ease (and your monstrous creatures deal with bigger models like land raiders, and give guard an glance them as well. At WORST, 4 glances means the vehicle is down, worst because that is the highest number of hull points on normal vehicles.
Zoanthropes have a lot of flexability, beig anti tank, anti infantry units or able to take rulebook powers.
And monstrous creatures with devourers. As I said, glancing is really mean now, vehicles feel easy to kill. Those 6-12 s6 shots are bound to get a few hull points on most vehicles (av11 front, guard 12, rear on most is 10) and with most vehicles dying after 3 glances or damage results, something tells me your LGS is going to lose a lot of its vehicles this edition.
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Post by fleetofclaw on Jul 25, 2012 6:30:10 GMT
I agree, on their own termagants aren't *nearly* as cool as hormogants (wtf bio-mp5s? fail) but en masse they are a sight to behold. Their straight tails make them look like a horrifying swarm of nastiness. They'll grow on you.
At 2500 points that is a terribly low number of troops choices. I'd recommend at least 2 troops slot tervigons if you're going Nidzilla.
Also if you're doing a walkrant with that much tyrant guard, consider a swarmlord. He is a psychic horror, probably numero uno in close combat in 6th edition, and nigh unkilliable if joined with a regenning tyranid prime and the right powers (seriously... endurance + iron arm + look out sir = come at me bro).
That 3x Carnifex brood is awesome and hilarious. 36 s6 shots? Hmmm, that will likely be overkill against all but the most hardcore of targets, but I'd love to see it. I have 2 carnifex and the 24 shots are plenty, consider splitting 1 off.
I have yet to play with a Harpy, but with the new flying MC rules, and a new model coming out next month I'm sure we'll start seeing them in use more often. I hate venom cannons with every fiber of my being, they are one of the "wtf were you thinking, Cruddace" moments; talk about a gun with a massive identity crisis.
I don't suggest that you drop the t-fex out of personal experience, but purely from an "on paper" point of view. They're a ton of points for a low ballistic skill, 2 shot gun and I think there are plenty of other ways for us to deal with armor now. They are more effective as anti-infantry with acid spray, but we already eat infantry for breakfast... so.... hmmm. I try to put them in a list and never pull the trigger (I'd have to proxy it anyway, only have tervigons modeled).
Sorry for the rambling. But have fun, and please oh please do not shy away from the Tervigon. They are total all-stars, you can absolutely wreckface with them thanks to the new poison rules and swappable powers.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 25, 2012 14:15:55 GMT
Uhhhhh, @op th/SS have a 3++ invuln, due to their storm sheilds. Terminators that dot have storm sheilds are exactly as he said in the quote, easy to deal with. The 3++ is a different story, being very very difficult in close combat. I said the MCs ignore armor, not invulnerable saves. I've had good success with trygons against those chaps; unload at range for ~1 failed save, then rush into combat for ~6 wounds and ~2 more failed saves. 5-man unit is down to 2 guys to hit back, which is perfect for mopping up when their turn comes around. Massed hits are, of course, the other option. They tend to die enroute, but a solid hormagaunt assault can put dozens of wounds on a unit. With the removal of fearless wounds, those terminators will stay tarpitted for the rest of the game. |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 25, 2012 15:45:09 GMT
My comment on their 3++ was because the OP said they had a 5++ which is what normal terminators have.
I don't disagree that Monstrous creatures are one of the better ways to deal with them, but then, you put our strongest close combat creature against a unit you assume to have taken a wound and you are on the charge. If the opponent is on the charge that is 4 guys with your example, who go to 2 guys, still 4 attacks and about 2 wounds, tie combat but now your striking at initiave 1 (unless thunder hammers now count as having that special rule, strike down I think, instead of their normal rules)
And correct me if I am wrong, aren't blood angels even able to give them feel no pain? I know marines can with apithiceries or something like that, I think there was something special about blood angels doing it though.
Let's Assume for the moment they dont. Your assuming they took wounds from shooting, you assume you didn't. In a combat where you charge, the Arnold's have a hard time, of course... Because you said they lost a guy already. If they charge you, your screwed though, because by the time either of you are in range to do so, if they have taken realistically 1 wound, auto cannons, las cannons, and missiles make you realistically at 3.
This is all speculation, my Experiance with mc's vs terminatorss who always get a 3++ has been less than fruitful than yours. And I haven't seen much a loss of love for heavy weapons.
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Post by mhqvick on Jul 25, 2012 17:22:04 GMT
Rahap: remember that invulnerable saves is DIFFERENT from ward saves (: you cant make armorsavs and then make invulnerable, you have to choose one.
I'm sorry if you already know, but this was one of my biggest mistakes when i shifted.
Also, I would change the tyranofex into a tervigon, they are evil with the new psy powers,
and the spawn gants rules aren't bad either (:
magnus
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