Struggling to Make Anything Out of These Models

[scrotatohead]

One Pyrovore is super weak so no doubt you shouldn't field it. BUT, the model is on a MC base and as a casting it's fairly decent sized. Proxy it for a Tyrant with BS&LW and Devourers. Or proxy it as a Dakkafex with two sets of Devourers. That should help you get an MC on the table without having to make any additional investment.

As for a cheap and easy spore pod, before I found mine on eBay I used soda cans. Nobody ever complained and they're a fairly acceptable size. There's no model so anything can be used as a proxy. Plus every game I knew not only would I have a couple "pods" for my list but also a tasty beverage during each battle.

[squash]

In my example list, I have a trygon an 2 tervigans. In this edition that lists logic only got better. Before, in 2 out of 3 missions, it was a choice between taking out my trygon charging forward with their anti tank, or take out the tervigans who give them feel no pain and score. More often than not, in a tank heavy or even infantry heavy environment, the trygon is lagutamatly a better option because once its on the other side of the board it will do a lot of damage. Hell, even shooting at the tervigans instead would mean that the trygon is getting over unharmed. And maybe in 1 game, has an opponent managed to gun down a T6 6 wound 3+ save mc with 5+ cover in 1 turn (4+ cover if I can manage)

I can barely read this, I mean I what the hell is "lagutamatly"? Anyway, I think you're trying to say that people target Trygons over Tervigons, because Trygons are better at killing vehicles? That isn't true anymore, Tervigons are borderline superior to Trygons at wrecking vehicles now, and adrenal gland'd termagants can do the job too. Honestly I feel you have a broader point but I just can't get to it, could you please rephrase in a more cogent way?

Now, then we get to the gants who are easily fit into area terrain becaus of their unit size. They have guns that destroy any infantry that pop out of the rhinos I shot down with hive guard. Hive guard are a pretty big threat to all transport vehicles.

INFANTRY are a pretty big threat to all transport vehicles too now. Honestly the need for hive guard is decreasing, and while they're still valuable they're not the essential transport popper they used to be thanks to
a) pretty much anything in our codex being good at ruining transports
b) armies taking much less transports

Now I ask you, with your non-idiot gaming group, which is the target of priority? The scoring unit that won't die to bolster fire and weapons that will kill it will die to the monstrous creature with fleet if they DIY deal with it, while being able to hold even more objectives with spawning capabilities? Or is it the similarly tough mc that is making the third mc very tough to touch outside ap 1-2? How about the 3rd 6 wound mc who is getting 2 saves (feel no pain and cover/armor) from every shot you fire while marching down the board. How about the unit of venoms joined by a prime so that thy can't be smushed by missiles and infantry fire isn't usually long enough to reach them early game. And of course there are 2 units of termagants who an lagutamatly do a but of damage by aren't early game close enough to take much damage, and late game are the most lethal.

I honestly can't read this. There's lagutamatly again, at first I thought it was meant to be 'automatically' but now I have no clue.

I would call you stupid but I forgot how long I was off, so you don't actually know my techniques offhand.

Yeowch! That could of been rude, thanks for not calling me stupid.

Onto the tervigan logic.

Tervigon. With an 'o'. Honestly it's been driving me nuts this whole time, every time you spell it with an 'a', where does that come from?

Never, ever, spawn.

Noted.

You spawn on these occasions

Wait what? BUT YOU JUST SAID NEVER EVER SPAWN.

Hope that cleared that up.

I have never been more confused in my life.

Enlighten me, how exactly do ripper swarms cover 25% of a trygon? Or hormagaunts for that matter...

Page 18, Intervening Models. Welcome to sixth edition rookie, maybe it's time you failed a Synapse check and lurked more.

[wisdomseyes1]

Wait what? BUT YOU JUST SAID NEVER EVER SPAWN.

Smart ass.

But I do agree on that you can't read this, sort of. You could have interpreted what I was trying to say and chose not to. I am currently forced to use an Itouch to be on the hive.

Now I ask you, with your non-idiot gaming group, which is the target of priority? The scoring unit that won't die to bolter fire and weapons that *would* kill it will die to the monstrous creature with fleet if they dont deal with it, while being able to hold objectives itself in tandum with spawning capabilities? Or is it the similarly tough mc that is making the third mc very tough to touch with feel no pain outside ap 1-2? How about the 3rd 6 wound mc who is getting 2 saves (feel no pain and cover/armor) from every shot you fire while marching down the board and being the biggest combat threat on the table (but by far not the only). How about the unit of venoms joined by a prime so that thy can't be smushed by missiles and infantry fire isn't usually long enough to reach them early game. And of course there are 2 units of termagants who an legitimately do a but of damage by aren't early game close enough to take much damage or be much of threat, and late game are at their most lethal and score.

Fixed it, auto correct is a (please do not swear).

Tervigon. With an 'o'. Honestly it's been driving me nuts this whole time, every time you spell it with an 'a', where does that come from?

It's natural for me to spell phonetically alongside the fact it spawns termagants (which I still say "termagaunt" regardless of the new spelling. The spelling of a made up thing is pretty insignificant really, if your the only one who cares... An you are.

INFANTRY are a pretty big threat to all transport vehicles too now. Honestly the need for hive guard is decreasing, and while they're still valuable they're not the essential transport popper they used to be thanks to
a) pretty much anything in our codex being good at ruining transports
b) armies taking much less transports

Even if transports had 1 hull point, it would be silly to say transports are useless now. Infantry fire, in most codecies (say Tyranids) are s4 fire. Rhinos and chimeras, last I checked, had higher than av10 front. So, unless we are always getting into close combat with vehicles or always hitting their rear armor, you are mistaken in infantry's ability to take out transports (outside crons and tau.)

Which also reminds me, what is your brilliant idea vs land raiders. New rules didn't seem to cut their popularity having more hull points than everything else and a standard immunity to penitrating from most weapons. Outside of close combat, our best option is to use hive guard to glance land raiders, and close combat is still just as annoying as ever.


---------

Your entire last post ignored any and all valid points I made. It focused on my spelling which was pretty obvious from the "DIY" in place of don't that it was an auto correct issue. You also continue, despite my many times of repeating myself, decide that when I say "this is what I used in 5th edition" "this was my strategy in 5th edition" "not everything still works the same way in this new edition", you still manage to decide that I am saying this list translates to this edition.

The only thing from this list that translates to this edition, is target saturation and making opponents make the wrong moves (which I have explained in great detail above)

If you are going to continue posting in response to have an informed descusion and exchange of ideas, I'm fine with that. If you are going to continue to be a smart ass and only post to cause problems, we are done here.

[squash]

INFANTRY are a pretty big threat to all transport vehicles too now. Honestly the need for hive guard is decreasing, and while they're still valuable they're not the essential transport popper they used to be thanks to
a) pretty much anything in our codex being good at ruining transports
b) armies taking much less transports

Even if transports had 1 hull point, it would be silly to say transports are useless now. Infantry fire, in most codecies (say Tyranids) are s4 fire. Rhinos and chimeras, last I checked, had higher than av10 front. So, unless we are always getting into close combat with vehicles or always hitting their rear armor, you are mistaken in infantry's ability to take out transports

I don't know about other people but I've found my Ymgarl and gargoyles to be my MVP vehicle killers, though spore podding devilgants behind a vehicle has resulted in a dead vehicle in every game I've played this last week. Your own mileage will vary obviously,

I'll point out I didn't say transports are useless now, but they're certainly less popular. They're more fragile, and games are being played at fewer points values than before, and people often sacrifice transports to save points and keep squad sizes large. It goes to reason that the fewer transports enemies field, the fewer anti-transport units we need, but hive guard still have a role as vehicle glancers.

Which also reminds me, what is your brilliant idea vs land raiders. New rules didn't seem to cut their popularity having more hull points than everything else and a standard immunity to penitrating from most weapons. Outside of close combat, our best option is to use hive guard to glance land raiders, and close combat is still just as annoying as ever.[\quote]

If you filled all three elites slots with 450 points of hive guard, they would average 1.9 glances against a land raider without cover, obviously that number drops to 1.25 average glances against a land raider in cover, which is very likely. This to me does not strike me as "our best option". I think most people would contend that spore podding zoanthropes next to the land raider or engaging with a flyrant to be adept approaches to the situation.

Land Raiders seem to be the boogeyman of this game though, it's something we talk about an awful lot but I don't come across them very often, they have a poor firepower to points exchange and most of what they transport can deep strike anyway. I'm not sure if it's worthwhile planning an army around specific enemy units.

The only thing from this list that translates to this edition, is target saturation and making opponents make the wrong moves (which I have explained in great detail above)

If you are going to continue posting in response to have an informed descusion and exchange of ideas, I'm fine with that. If you are going to continue to be a smart ass and only post to cause problems, we are done here.

Wait, you really intended this to be an "informed descusion (Descusion? Really?) and exchange of ideas"? Please, please, please see this from my perspective and try not to take offence.

The OP lists the models she has, and asks for help turning them into a list. Here's a quote;

That they are. But I'm not really asking what I should buy, I'm asking how to make what I currently have, work.

So then you drop a list for the OP that includes roughly $200 of models she doesn't have that were not on her list.

Then you repeatedly insist this conversation should only be about fifth edition. Who the heck is still playing fifth edition?

How are you contributing to anything in this thread?

[wisdomseyes1]

I will repeat myself. The list I gave is a list from 5th edition.

I am not sure how long YOU have been here, but if you ask anyone I know from here, thy will tell you it is against hive policy to make a list for someone else because they asked you to. She gave a list, I put 4 very detailed bullets using her own models and then proceeded to give an example of what I would have prefered to see, but I also stated that I understood she could not do that because of the lack of monstrous creatures.

Then SOMEONE decided to ignore my bullet points on the list she gave and focus solely on the list I provided that didnt include her models because I don't make lists for other people, on rare occasion I will post the editors version of the list I would use, and that's really in a very giving mood because it is a bit of time on my part as opposed to giving the reasons I don't like the lists and what to change (formatting and math are not something I want to or will deal with every time a list question comes up)

So explain to me how I am being unhelpful? Or are you going to continue to focus on my second half of my original post alone and continue to be butt hurt that I disagreed with some of the things you said in your post (hence how this discussion began in the first place. I disagreed with one of your points and you got... Excuse the language, mad bro).

And then we moved, of course, to your comments about the tervigon which instead of admitting you didn't realize you had to spawn every turn and that it wasnt "troll logic" you chose to correct my spelling and leave it at that. The same is true for my target saturation suggestion, which I told the op was hard because her model collection had little to go on in terms of threats, but I ende up having to explain to you what target saturation was because you believed it to be something only idiots would fall for, and instead of addressing what I explained (after of course I corrected its flaws) you chose to ignore it altogether.

I have contributed plenty to this tread, I am now waiting for the op to respond with further questions so that I may respond to them while also leaving tactical advice on using monstrous creatures when she does eventually get some. And if she chooses to never get some, at least you may of learned something.

Take from it what you will. I look forward to your response, likely something I spelled wrong on here that your going to quote And then expect me to respond to as well

[squash]

Jul 23, 2012 19:11:56 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

I will repeat myself. The list I gave is a list from 5th edition.

Nobody cares, nobody plays 5th edition, this be 6th edition country.

I am not sure how long YOU have been here, but if you ask anyone I know from here, thy will tell you it is against hive policy to make a list for someone else because they asked you to.

No it isn't. Here's the forum policies.

thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=12005

but I also stated that I understood she could not do that because of the lack of monstrous creatures.

No you didn't. I went back and checked, you never said that.

Then SOMEONE decided to ignore my bullet points on the list she gave and focus solely on the list I provided that didnt include her models

Well, yeah, I didn't have a problem with any of it, it was all very basic, but fundamentally sound stuff. Except for the word 'nececary' of course.

So explain to me how I am being unhelpful?

I JUST SAID. The OP asks for help making a list with the models she has, you post a list using mostly models she DOESN'T have, for an edition nobody plays. That's why.

And then we moved, of course, to your comments about the tervigon which instead of admitting you didn't realize you had to spawn every turn

I NEVER SAID THAT. Yeesh.

and that it wasnt "troll logic"

Insane troll logic. It's from Buffy. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic

you chose to correct my spelling and leave it at that.

I expect more from a guy who lives in "Los Angelas"

but I ende up having to explain to you what target saturation was because you believed it to be something only idiots would fall for

Please stop twisting both our words. Here's what you said:

"I play the game with the mindset that I want my opponent to shoot the wrong thing."

That is dumb. That is all.

Take from it what you will. I look forward to your response, likely something I spelled wrong on here that your going to quote And then expect me to respond to as well

You're*.

[bloodborne]

jeez guys, whip out your "scything talon" and measure already... this argument has now completely derailed the thread... Now can someone, ANYONE please post anything that is in fact, on topic?

[wisdomseyes1]

Well, yeah, I didn't have a problem with any of it, it was all very basic, but fundamentally sound stuff. Except for the word 'nececary' of course.

I'm sorry my bullet points as commentary on her example list only pointed out its flaws ad offered basic suggestions on how to fix it rather than breaking some secret of the game no one else knew.

And, where I live only adds to the stupidity of being subject to higher volumes of (please do not swear) apple products whose auto correct function can and will correct perfectly fine words if it thinks you are being grammatically incorrect.

"I play the game with the mindset that I want my opponent to shoot the wrong thing."

I did already explain this...

Spores: I really think you need them for your devilgaunts and warriors. There's a ton of great ways to make them, I actually just bought an aquarium coral that looks perfect for it. They're dirt cheap in points, and means your shootier elements can... Shoot.

Normally I would say you are totally wrong and that termagants have no problem getting into range for their guns. However, that logic of mine assumes target saturation which with the lack of threatening models (no offense) may become more difficult.I play the game with the mindset that I want my opponent to shoot the wrong thing. In that example list, I felt like I was missing something, and i think I remembered, one of the guards where actually venomthropes. My tactic wasn't that difficult to grasp, charge forward with a fnp cover saved trygon and have the opponent deal with it and my 20-30 (how many gants where actually there escapes me) while my tervigans either went forward with the trygon to keep it alive or hold back for the purposes of objectives and spawn last minute to avoid shots on the poor gants I spawned.

You didn't check very hard when you went back to make sure, did you?

----

Trying to explain to you the most basic tactics in the game is pointless, so I'll just end my conversation with you here. If the op has more to ask, I will be happy to answer and help. I will not MAKE a list, though. That is a waist of everyone's time.

[squash]

Waste.

[Xantige]

There's a lot of material here for me to read, and process. I think you'll all agree that it's hard to read so much text in this red and black colouring...

Actually, I think most games I'll be playing will probably use the typical means of deciding what type of game it is, I think that means it'll be mostly about objectives. I also can't do much with the Tyrant, Gargs, Biovore, or Zoey right now, since they aren't here, they'll probably be a week or two.

I'm not too hot on the idea of proxying the Pyrovore as a Biovore, especially with another, real Biovore in the same group, but I just might have to bite the bullet. It's either proxy some things, or keep the frustrating list I have currently. But I find the idea of proxying the Pyrovore as a Tyrant to be... a little too much.

Another note on the proxy issue: I probably could whip out some CDs to use as Trygons and Tervigons, but I can't imagine my fellow gamers being okay with it for anything more than a few games. After that I'd probably have to go back to my old list or find a more suitable stand in (there's some people that use wooden drop pods and thunderhawks crudely cut out of wood, but they're to scale). Since I'm not made of money, I'd probably at most be able to afford a single Trygon or Tervigon sometime in the next month or two. I know no one has suggested me running CDs, but I just thought I'd put that out there.

Squash, Wisdom, please stop arguing, you've both taken it to the point that I'm not sure if I can address what either of you said, without it looking like I'm taking sides...

Squash, I think you misread page 18. It says that models/units receive a cover save following the rules of cover with terrain. Thus, the model needs to be 25% covered by the intervening model to get a save. I don't have a Trygon, but I find it hard to believe that a swarm of rippers that aren't raised on their base could grant the Trygon a save... Hormagaunts... I really don't know about that one. I'm just pointing this out to clarify the rules, or to be clarified myself, please don't take this as an attack.

I think someone brought up making a smaller army list than trying to stuff useless models into a bigger one. So here's a question for you all: Should I make a decent 1000, or possibly even lower list, that's solid, or take whatever I need too to try and meet the typical point level the club plays at (which is apparently 1750). If the former, what point level would my range of models be suited for? I have no idea what other armies can take at any point range, I haven't played enough games with different armies, so I have no idea how much heavy hitting or Anti-vehicle I'd need at 1000, 750 or 500.

I thank you guys for all the info so far, and I'm sorry it took a bit for me to get back to this thread. if I repeat questions, I'm sorry. This is a lot to take in, and there's differences in opinion and I'm not sure who to go with on what.

I think what I want to do, is to keep most of my units in synapse. I don't like gambling 1-2 precious units of Hormagaunts (and they are precious since I have no heavy hitters) on a leadership of 6, or a high Initiative. All it takes is for me to roll a 1, and a Marine player to roll a 6 for them to all be killed in a sweeping advance. That's sort of why I keep thinking I need two synapse nodes. One for the shooting units that want to stay back, and one for the units moving forward... or might it be smarter to forgo objectives in an attempt to kill the enemy, and advance all my models, shooty gaunts included, in an attempt to assault everything?

I won't lie, it seems like no matter how you cut it, this army isn't going to win even against the most casual of lists. I'm fine if you guys agree. In fact, I'd like to know what you guys think. Do you think an army from these models would be hard pressed to win against anything? Or do you think it could stand a chance? Also keep in mind that I'm quite the noob, so even the best lists will fail in my hands when faced against the local veterans at my club.

[wisdomseyes1]

Squash, I think you misread page 18. It says that models/units receive a cover save following the rules of cover with terrain. Thus, the model needs to be 25% covered by the intervening model to get a save. I don't have a Trygon, but I find it hard to believe that a swarm of rippers that aren't raised on their base could grant the Trygon a save... Hormagaunts... I really don't know about that one. I'm just pointing this out to clarify the rules, or to be clarified myself, please don't take this as an attack.

Now I'm not going to quote the part I'm addressing because that is problematic on an Itouch, so I shall just say it outright. Descusion is over, don't worry. There isn't really much material to "take sides" on anyway, but let's move passed that, shall we?

He is referring to the interviening models section that specifically says that models behind other models only have to be partially obscured. I addressed this in my "3 quick questions" thread and an still waiting for responses, but as I read it I agree with you it SHOULD take precedence, but it could go either way if you try to read it that way.

I think someone brought up making a smaller army list than trying to stuff useless models into a bigger one. So here's a question for you all: Should I make a decent 1000, or possibly even lower list, that's solid, or take whatever I need too to try and meet the typical point level the club plays at (which is apparently 1750). If the former, what point level would my range of models be suited for? I have no idea what other armies can take at any point range, I haven't played enough games with different armies, so I have no idea how much heavy hitting or Anti-vehicle I'd need at 1000, 750 or 500.

There isnt any way I could ever justify 1750 points without monstrous creatures, and if I could, not with the models you have. You wouldn't ever win outside of dumb luck, because you would be forced to use all your models and then pile upgrades onto them to make them fit the limit, which is never a good idea. I think you have the models for 1250, but you will have better options available the lower points you go. Tyranids, though, don't like low points mostly becaus our better models are 160 points+ and it's hard to balance vs infantry and vehicles. This may have changed in 6th, but I don't see enough of a change to justify a lack of conserned for vehicles at any point level.

I do agree with squash when he says vehicles have gotten weaker.

I think what I want to do, is to keep most of my units in synapse. I don't like gambling 1-2 precious units of Hormagaunts (and they are precious since I have no heavy hitters) on a leadership of 6, or a high Initiative. All it takes is for me to roll a 1, and a Marine player to roll a 6 for them to all be killed in a sweeping advance. That's sort of why I keep thinking I need two synapse nodes. One for the shooting units that want to stay back, and one for the units moving forward... or might it be smarter to forgo objectives in an attempt to kill the enemy, and advance all my models, shooty gaunts included, in an attempt to assault everything?

First: if you get rage and charge, you shouldn't be taking any tests for running away. The only issue is you will want to keep them in synapse for shooting, but even without rage you are getting 3 attacks each. That is massive.

Secondly: This reminded me of something seer council jetbike eldar have taken a shining to doing in 6th edition. Aim for secondary objectives. The point is exactly what you said, forgo objectives. Aim for the warlord kill, behind the lines, first blood, do not let the opponent get objectives as much as possible. At the end of the game, you have been aiming for a tie the entire time and you have the secondary conditions while you dont, granting you a victory.

Eldar likely do it far better, though. Fortune, and jetbikes make it much easier. If you had some way to scrap a spore, you would be able to easily obtain behind the lines and as squash did suggest put the devil gants in their destroying any threat in a singe turn of shooting. The main issue with that is synapse, not likely being in it unless you try for it, an if you try for it you might not make it or you won't hit the rear of the vehicles you want to kill. At low points that won't be that big a deal. But that's assuming you can even scrap a spore.

I won't lie, it seems like no matter how you cut it, this army isn't going to win even against the most casual of lists. I'm fine if you guys agree. In fact, I'd like to know what you guys think. Do you think an army from these models would be hard pressed to win against anything? Or do you think it could stand a chance? Also keep in mind that I'm quite the noob, so even the best lists will fail in my hands when faced against the local veterans at my club.

Your model selection isnt flexible, but by no means "bad". There are just a lot of suggestions people will want to make that we can not. You can win in casual games no issues (once you learn How your army feels, and the game as a wholes functions) it's higher points where the big bugs become more and more nececery due to more common sightings of higher armor.

[squash]

I agree with everything Wisdom just said. And I'm starting to rethink my previous "intervening models" assumption, it's so clumsily written it really could mean anything.

I don't think what you have is bad, and I think it's a great place to start, just focus on smaller point games for a while. I'm even starting to think deployment is more important than composition.

[Xantige]

Page 18, intervening models is written a bit clumsily, but I think it's rather clear. Remove the parenthesis section and it seems rather clear to me... I don't want to quote too much, but if I may quote the sentence without the parenthesis: "If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit, ... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain." To me, that's an obvious cue to turn to how models are treated if they're covered by terrain. But maybe I'm missing something because I didn't read the whole page....

I tend to agree with you about deployment squash. Perhaps it's not as big a game changer with some armies, but I find that my lists rely heavily on deployment. If I can get into a good position (which is rare), I find I can do some real damage. Other times I find my models walking up the board and just getting shot down because I started in a bad area. That said, when it comes to moving and deployment, I'm always in the dark. I think part of that has to do with me not knowing anything about the armies I'm facing. Hopefully that will change one day.

It's also nice to hear that my limited choices aren't an auto-lose for me. Having a small chance is better than none.

I'm thinking of either making a 1000 or a 750 point list to start. I think my local gamers will understand my situation. Plus, it might be easier to learn 6th ed with a smaller army. Which point level do you guys think I should go for?

Also, without a Tervigon, would you ever take both Hormagaunts and Termagants as troops? To me, both seem to have very different roles that don't work together without MC's or buffs. I love my Devilgaunts, but lately I've been thinking that maybe I should focus more on fielding Genestealers and Hormagaunts, so that I need less synapse. Maybe I'll hunt down a spore, or a fitting proxy that won't get crushed in my backpack and use that with my Devilgaunts for a few games as well...

[squash]

Oh I take Hormagaunts and Termagants in every game I play. I endeavor to keep the hormagants *just* out of synapse range so they rage into enemies. From my experience they're very unreliable though, they usually just get shot to death before they can get into charge range. However I'd say one out of three games they get into charge range, and absolute demolish the enemy. In those games they're my game winning MVPs, so I accept the risk and burn 200 points on them.

My termagants on the other hand I give devourers, keep in a group of 20 and drop them from a spore pod. They're the opposite of the hormagaunts, they're zero risk with a pretty consistent reward. I don't think they've ever not made their points back, but I can't think of a time they really ripped a hole in the enemy.

[bloodborne]

In my current list that I am building, I do not have a Tervigon, yet I have two sets of termis and on set of hormis. What I do have though, are warrior broods to back up the termis for objective guarding. Granted, this is a much shootier list than what I typically have taken in the past. Once you do eventually get your hands on your upcoming additions, I think you'll find many of the issues you are having will go away. I'm inclined to agree with squash, that until you get the rest of your units, keep games small, and build up a list of tactics that work for you. Reality of it is, as you have said, you are new, alot of the advice from vetted players, while useful on a broad scale, does not necessarily work for every player. What you really need to do is figure out what does work for you, what doesn't work for you, and to keep what does work, and find alternative means for what does not. For example, one of the recurring issues for most builds that people end up facing is a lack of being able to take down AV14, not only because it is terribly strong, but also for the fact that what it is commonly found on, is point sink units. For Tyranids, there are two distinct options(although not the only ones, just the two easiet that come to mind), MCs hammering them repeatedly in CC, or Zoanthrope Lance attacks. There are good and bad to both. MCs, you are usually commiting either a vast amount of resource, to take on a (usually) single unit, that they have to get into B2B with, that under most circumstances, are very nice krak targets, What IS good about them, is they take much of that firepower away from other units, which are what point sinks are for anyway, and the biggest AV14 killer is usually going to be specially kitted out fexen, so you do not lose synapse coverage when they are killed. On the other end, there are Zoanthropes. easily able to take out AV14 with their lance, and are synapse as well, so they are able to keep your forces cohesive. However, even in spite of having an invul, they are far more fragile, and commiting them to take out that AV14 risks losing Synapse coverage, thus making your army as a whole, fragile.

So what do you do? there are both good and bad to both units mentioned that are able to take that on. Either can make or break an army, depending on how you have built it. Personally? I use two zoanthropes, hidden behind lots of bugs and hopefully, not noticed until I need them. I've also gotten used to playing armies where cross fire is important (Tau and IG respectively), so I am well aware of, and very comfortable with, how to make an enemy come to me, as opposed to me having to get into their face. Similarly, I play heavy CC lists as well(older nids, orks), however, in the current scheme of the nids codex, I don't see my usual builds as being worthwhile to me any longer(as seen by my complete lack of any kind of carnifex).