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Post by Xantige on Jul 22, 2012 3:25:04 GMT
Hullo Hive. I find myself feeling nothing but frustration everytime I try and make a Tyranid army lit. Part of the problem is my limited number of models (that will change soon, but not for weeks). On top of that, I haven't played much, so my knowledge of tactics is minimal at best.
I know you guys prefer that I post a list for you to help me tweak, but I just spent the last hour writing up about 5+ lists, and none of them felt satisfying, even for a fun game. I feel like I don't have enough of any one thing to make a workable list, even at 1000 points. I'm strapped for what I can use for synapse, and my models are divided between shooty and stabby, but there's not enough of either (in my opinion) to be effective. I also feel like my collection lacks any hard hitters, and my lists feel like I'm trying to make Gaunts take on the roles of our elites, fast attack and heavy support units, so my Gaunts are either screens that are screening for nothing, or souped up models with nothing between them and the enemy bullets.
I just want to be able to make a list that's fun to play. Competition means little to me, but by that token, I want an army that can make it to turn 5. I couldn't tell you much about my club's meta, I haven't gotten a proper game in with any of them, but they have Space Marines, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, with the occasional Orks. Of that, I think IG and SMs and Necrons appear the most.
If you guys are adamant about seeing my lists, I'll post 1 or 2. Part of what I'm also struggling with, is deciding on what point level to make my list. I've tried for 1,000 and 1,250, since I'm guessing the local players play at 1,500 (I have yet to ask).
On a final note... I'm not crazy about proxying, and I don't have much to proxy with (the AoBR set, with 3 sets of Orks, and some Tau. Nothing on an Oval base, and just the Dreadnought for a 60mm base), but I'm fine with proxying models with different guns and biomorphs (eg, Genestealers as Ymgarls, Devilgaunts as Termagants, Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs).
(PS, I haven't had a game of 6th yet, so I'm still thinking in 5th edition terms for most things)
Without further delay, here's a list of my current collection of models:
1 Prime
5 Warriors
3 Hive Guard
1 Pyrovore
16 Genestealers
20 Devilgaunts
12 Termagants
32 Hormagaunts
10 Ripper Swarms
The following is on it's way, but could be 2 weeks away:
1 Zoanthrope
1 Biovore
10 Gargoyles
1 Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord
As for the gist of my lists, there are a few ways I run them, but they all more or less boil down to 2 choices on 2 parts of my army:
1) Upgraded Troops, or Not: Sometimes I take Hormagaunts and Genestealers with Toxin Sacs, sometimes I don't. When I do, they get killed quickly and when they're gone, my army is gone. When I don't give them anything, there's lots of them, but they're ineffective in hurting the enemy, and thus my army is ineffective in hurting the enemy.
2) A Prime with Warriors, Or a Prime separate from Warriors: Whn I take my Prime with Warriors, I feel I have a very strong CC group (I usually kit them with LW/BS and Toxin Sacs). However, my army gets scrunched around this one central node, and it slows down my Hormagaunts and forces my shooty gaunts to have to march up the board. When I split the two, I usually make my Prime shooty, and stick her with the shooty gaunts. I then either choose 3 shooty Warriors to walk up behind the Hormagaunts, just for synapse and a bit of firing, or I kit them for CC and use the Hormagaunts for cover. In the former case, the Warriors seem like they should be staying back and laying down fire, instead of putting themselves in danger of enemy fire, in the latter, they're slower and usually don't get into CC unless the enemy has a lot of units on the board. I'd prefer to run my Prime with the Hormagaunts, but he denies them Bounding Leap and Fleet...
Aside from that, I almost always take 6-8 Ymgarls and 2-3 Hive Guard. I used to adamantly take my 20 Devilgaunts, but now I'm just so frustrated, that I don't know what to do once I get to my troops slots. I fill up all 6 pretty quickly...
I hope that was coherent enough, I apologize that this was so long...
EDIT: Decided to give you guys a sample list anyways. This is the last list I made before I got too fed up and burnt out to continue:
1250 point list:
HQ:
Prime - 85
- Deathspitter
Elites:
8 Ymgarls 184
3 Hive Guard - 150
Troops:
5 Warriors - 180
- Deathspitters
- Barbed Strangler
16 Hormagaunts - 128
- Toxin Sacs
16 Hormagaunts - 128
- Toxin Sacs
20 Devilgaunts - 200
8 Genestealers -136
- Toxin Sacs
10 Termagants - 50
= 1241
Some things feel added, just to meet the limit (Hive Guard, 2 Warriors, etc). I also feel like my army is divided into the shooting half and the stabby half, neither really gels. I have no proper tactics for this list, the genestealers are meant to cause panic and take out some of the enemy units. The Hormagaunts are meant to be both a screen, distraction and a force to do damage to the enemy. The Warriors are to follow beind the Horms and lay down so fire without getting shot themselves. The Prime would probably go with teh Hive Guard or Devilgaunts and walk up a bit to shoot with them. Behind giving synapse to the back field, she has no real purpose.
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Post by nocturnalreaper on Jul 22, 2012 4:37:58 GMT
Your major problem might be lack od MCs. Tervigons are now golden.
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Post by Xantige on Jul 22, 2012 4:43:27 GMT
Your major problem might be lack od MCs. Tervigons are now golden. That they are.  But I'm not really asking what I should buy, I'm asking how to make what I currently have, work. I really wish I had a Trygon or Tervigon, or a couple of them. I think that would help me out quite a bit. |
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Post by Talonis on Jul 22, 2012 4:55:49 GMT
You have a nice amount of little bugs, and should do well takin objectives. You are right about not having any heavy hitters, which will hurt withthe options you can do against certain opponents.
Putting your prime in with warriors is probably your best bet, and getthat unit into a central location where fire support will help your smaller bugs. Keep them in cover too.
You don't need to worry too much about keepin your hormagaunts in synapse now, rage may actually help you to destroy a unit on the charge.
Overall, I think you have a solid set of troops now just need to look at supporting them with some heavy hitters later on. Maybe a trygon or carnifex (dakkafex would help alot) and possibly look at adding a broodlord into your stealers.
Adrenal glands on hormagaunts could assist in killing vehicles, and try to keep your hive guard out of sight somewhere where they can still fire effectively.
I'm out at the moment but I'll take another look later as there maybe some other things I've missed while typing on my phone.
Edit:
You should find a way to scratch build a mycetic spore, there are plenty of great tutorials in the converting thread. Use this to deepstrike your devil gaunts. That is a nice tactic which puts a fair amount of hurt on a single unit. Then after run them into cover (preferably near an objective) and shoot anything within range or anyone silly enough to charge them (60 overwatch shots should make someone think twice!)
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 22, 2012 5:22:46 GMT
Use the pyrovore as a biovore, for one  In your made up list, issues I see. 1) you are doing very little with the tyranid prime. You gave it a death spitter, great. I didn't read but something tells me you are putting it in the warriors. Fine, I don't mind. But you are requiring the warriors to get close with no way of dealing with cc. I suggest lw/bs and/or adding poison to the warriors/ prime (at 5/10 points each, it's a pretty good deal) 2) I suggest 5 yealers, saves points and ensures you don't win combat the turn you charge (always choose toughness on the charge) thus making them more likely to survive from the enemies turn of shooting. Yealers are expensive to take a unit of 8. An over watch might kill 1, 2 at most, the yealers still have an upper hand. 3) your including 10 termagants. What for? Are try going to stay by themselves in the back holding an objective? Because if your opponent gets there, they won't care that the gants are there. 10 non fearless leadership 6 lurking t3 models whose only save is a 5+ cover, and can (and will) run away from being shot at? If I had your model selection, I would have been using the vanilla gants for extra wounds on the prime with look out sir (as I did last edition with the old allocation rules) 4) with the y genestealers dropped, up the stealer unit, because the extra wounds are now more nececery with outflank becoming similar to deep striking. You will take a few shots before hand, unless you can find a place out of Los to infiltrate closer than 18" to get your guys close enough to charge turn 1. chances are you won't, so wounds are nececery. You might up even more and consider taking away ts if need be to allow the greater amount of wounds. Without ts, they are still genestealers hahaha. 5) I feel the need to reccomend making that barbed strangler warrior a hive guard. I believe it's DA or killer croc that has the picture of the warrior converted to a hive guard from a carapace of a fex and a genestealers head. A list I used often in 5th 1250 Prime Ts Lw/bs Rending claws (vehicles, walkers mostly) Prime Ts Lw/bs Rending claws 2 hive guard 2 hive guard 2 hive guard 2 tervigans Ts Ag Catalyst 12 devil gant 12 devil gant Trygon Ag (which now is useless) 1250 Well, roughly that. I feel I am missing something. |
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Post by Xantige on Jul 22, 2012 5:58:09 GMT
You have a nice amount of little bugs, and should do well takin objectives. You are right about not having any heavy hitters, which will hurt withthe options you can do against certain opponents. Putting your prime in with warriors is probably your best bet, and getthat unit into a central location where fire support will help your smaller bugs. Keep them in cover too. You don't need to worry too much about keepin your hormagaunts in synapse now, rage may actually help you to destroy a unit on the charge. Overall, I think you have a solid set of troops now just need to look at supporting them with some heavy hitters later on. Maybe a trygon or carnifex (dakkafex would help alot) and possibly look at adding a broodlord into your stealers. Adrenal glands on hormagaunts could assist in killing vehicles, and try to keep your hive guard out of sight somewhere where they can still fire effectively. I'm out at the moment but I'll take another look later as there maybe some other things I've missed while typing on my phone. Edit: You should find a way to scratch build a mycetic spore, there are plenty of great tutorials in the converting thread. Use this to deepstrike your devil gaunts. That is a nice tactic which puts a fair amount of hurt on a single unit. Then after run them into cover (preferably near an objective) and shoot anything within range or anyone silly enough to charge them (60 overwatch shots should make someone think twice!) I kind of smiled when you suggested putting the Prime with the Warriors. That's how I typically love to run them, I don't know about 6th, but in 5th a lot of people recommended I run my Prime with gaunts instead of the Warriors. If the Hormagaunts aren't in synapse though, don't they only get rage if they fail their leadership roll? And won't they run after a single round of combat unless they win? With us no longer taking fearless wounds, I thought that it was almost more necessary to keep the Hormies in synapse range. I'm looking into making some spores, sadly I haven't had much time. I hadn't thought of those 60 overwatch shots though... so thanks for reminding me of that  Use the pyrovore as a biovore, for one In your made up list, issues I see. 1) you are doing very little with the tyranid prime. You gave it a death spitter, great. I didn't read but something tells me you are putting it in the warriors. Fine, I don't mind. But you are requiring the warriors to get close with no way of dealing with cc. I suggest lw/bs and/or adding poison to the warriors/ prime (at 5/10 points each, it's a pretty good deal) 2) I suggest 5 yealers, saves points and ensures you don't win combat the turn you charge (always choose toughness on the charge) thus making them more likely to survive from the enemies turn of shooting. Yealers are expensive to take a unit of 8. An over watch might kill 1, 2 at most, the yealers still have an upper hand. 3) your including 10 termagants. What for? Are try going to stay by themselves in the back holding an objective? Because if your opponent gets there, they won't care that the gants are there. 10 non fearless leadership 6 lurking t3 models whose only save is a 5+ cover, and can (and will) run away from being shot at? If I had your model selection, I would have been using the vanilla gants for extra wounds on the prime with look out sir (as I did last edition with the old allocation rules) 4) with the y genestealers dropped, up the stealer unit, because the extra wounds are now more nececery with outflank becoming similar to deep striking. You will take a few shots before hand, unless you can find a place out of Los to infiltrate closer than 18" to get your guys close enough to charge turn 1. chances are you won't, so wounds are nececery. You might up even more and consider taking away ts if need be to allow the greater amount of wounds. Without ts, they are still genestealers hahaha. 5) I feel the need to reccomend making that barbed strangler warrior a hive guard. I believe it's DA or killer croc that has the picture of the warrior converted to a hive guard from a carapace of a fex and a genestealers head. I do have a list where I have a CC Prime and CC Warriors intended to run together. In this list, though, they're meant to be separate to give synapse. I've tried CC Warriors walking up behind the Hormagaunts in one game. In that game, the Warriors did nothing, the Hormies took on the nearest squad, and my Warriors couldn't join in, and couldn't get to another target. Granted, it was only one game, and it was 1,000 spearhead on a full 6x4 table. We sort of ended up walking up the short edges of the table, so that may have been a factor. Hmm... 5 yealers? After overwatch and hitting at I1... I'm a not sure if they'd really survive their first combat, even with T5. Have you had/seen success with just 5? The 10 Termagants were there to stuff in 50 extra points, but yes, they were in that list to lurk on a backfield objective. I've actually had some success with that, since most people I've played with so far don't even bother with them or remember they're there. If the rest of the army survived a bit longer, it could have won me or tied me many games. That said, I actually hate toting them along. You're right, it doesn't take much to scare them off. But, most of my other troops are made to attack the enemy, not secure objectives. Really, I don't know what else I can do. I can't kill my enemy, with what I have, but I can't just camp on objectives either. I have more troops than anything else, so I have to use my scorer's to take the roles of Elites and Heavy Support... I had planed on infiltrating the Genestealers in an attempt to draw my opponent to them, or away from them, and hopefully off an objective, or closer to my Hormagaunts, or further from my Devilgaunts. It looked good in my head. I thought of using more stealers, but beyond 8, it gets hard to hide them. I've heard a lot about outflanking, but I'm not sure if at 1,000/1,250 if that's a good idea. They could be slogging for a while... I dunno, maybe 1,250 really adds a lot more to the table than 1,000. Actually, my warriors are magnetized, so they can have any option I want them to. I'm not really hot on the idea of converting them into Hive Guard. I like the Hive Guard model, even if it's stuck in one pose. Hmm... so it seems like having the Prime with the Warriors is a good route to go, whether that's shooty or CC? |
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Post by swarm492 on Jul 22, 2012 6:14:02 GMT
The list isnt shabby heres what I would do and why, also the list contains proxis. Nothing huge but their in there.
Prime-deathspitter, lash and sword 100pnts (lash & sword proxied)
Prime-deathspitter, lash and sword 100pnts (lash & sword proxied)
Ymgarlx8-184pnts
Ymgarlx8-184pnts
Hive guardx3-150pnts
Devilgauntsx20, in a pod-240pnts (proxied pod)
Hormagauntsx20, poison-160pnts
Termagantsx12-60pnts
Termagantsx12-60pnts (Some of these are horm minis)
1238pnts total
Because you said the list is intended for friendly matches I assumed it was just for bashing heads nothing really with lots of objectives.
The list tries to keep it simple, no crazy tactics are involved. Termagants provide cover for horms, primes are hidden in the units.
The heart of the army is the reserves, the ymgarls and the devilgaunts have the ability to destroy or seriously damage a enemy unit the turn they arive, this is awsome because the unit will do nothing or very little when its the enemys turn again. The ymgarls are also there to help provide anti armor, if the enemy has alot of tanks 8 ymgarls should be able to pop it without to much difficulty unless its heavy armor. In the end each unit will kill/ tie up/ or drasticly reduce the number of shots coming at the rest of your force. Also it forces your opponent to change their plans by changing up the game. Do they try to save their units being nom'ed on? or fight the ocean of bodies thats headed their way.
I went this route because you lack the units needed to get in gun duels or withstand alot of firepower, so every unit we can remove or keep from shooting is very important. I dont know how many krack missiles are in canada but they are everywhere in new york so I opted to exclude warriors from the list. The primes represent a mini deathstar concept, if your enemy has a mini character or a dedicated melee unit the two primes can jump on it with anything else you think you need.
In short- no complicated strategy- just run forward and pick your targets as needed.
As reserves come in use them to attack enemy infantry to take the presure off your blob as it crosses no mans land. If the enemy has to many tanks that need to be delt use a brood of ymgarls or both if you really really need to. Guants with guns should just blaze away, just get the horms in melee asap. * if you attack a unit already assaulted by the ymgarls your horms are safe from overwatch* And if you enemy pops out a hero of the day or a more dangerous unit throw the primes at it.
The list isnt perfect but I tried to keep it as simple as possible with a go forth and consume feel. There was alot I wanted to do but tried to stick with the minis you already own.
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Post by squash on Jul 22, 2012 6:17:25 GMT
I'm of the opinion that you should make your weaknesses your strengths. You have no monstrous creatures, consider that an advantage. You don't need to worry about force weapons, you'll have an easier time deploying, and missile spam lists will be less of a worry for you.
More specifically:
Gargoyles: You'll need more than 10 to be useful at anything, really.
Mycetic Spores: I really think you need them for your devilgaunts and warriors. There's a ton of great ways to make them, I actually just bought an aquarium coral that looks perfect for it. They're dirt cheap in points, and means your shootier elements can... Shoot.
Prime: As crazy as it sounds, consider putting him in the hormagaunts. Hormagaunts got hit hard in this edition, as you can't run and then assault, so that means the prime's mobility isn't a problem. He's not fleet, but if he's in the front of the group you'll get shot in overwatch, and you can 'look out sir!' the hormagaunts in the BACK of the group. The biggest problem i have assaulting is the models infront dying in overwatch, and discovering that brings me OUT of charge range. I think the prime would actually INCREASE the hormagaunt charge range. He also can be a tremendous close combat force.
Ymgarl: I've always found 5 too few and 8 too many, 6-7 is where I aim. However, Genestealers can't be discounted just yet, they still have potential as infiltrators, and I think they'd be interesting in spore pods (as the pod can give them cover).
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Post by squash on Jul 22, 2012 6:34:51 GMT
Sample list: This is what I'd bring,
Tyranid Prime, Lash Whip and bonesword, toxin sacs, Deathspitter,
20 Hormagaunts, Adrenal Glands, Poison Sacs
5 Warriors, Deathspitters
9 Ripper Swarms, Spinefists
20 Devilgants,
3 Hive Guard,
6 Ymgarl,
6 Ymgarl,
Total: 1246
Commentary:
The Prime goes with the hormagaunts, staying in the front to distribute overwatch wounds to the back of the group. This guy is an absolute beast. He ignores armour, and against MEQ he has a 3+ rerollable to wound, just a machine at close combat. The hormagants are similarly marine killing machines ON THE CHARGE, it's important that this group charges.
The rippers are massively unpopular, but they might have gotten better in this edition. Twin linked four attacks per base makes spinefists awesome overwatch weapons. Since units granting other units cover isn't dependent on sight covered anymore, it means a ripper swarm can give your whole army cover. Stick the rippers in the front of your army in a long line, the goal is to give your valuable models cover, and hopefully the rippers will be charged. That'll let them overwatch shoot, and then the hormagaunts behind them are guaranteed the charge next turn.
I have a lot of faith in this list, I think it'll work.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 22, 2012 6:44:47 GMT
Try running some warriors as Broodlords in stealer groups.
I've found them good fun with the new psychic powers and they could add some serious power to your list, especially with some lucky biomancy rolls.
Hormagaunts may run if they lose a combat but with such high initiative they won't likely get caught. As they fall back, you can have synapse ready to catch and regroup them for a second try.
I ran Ymgarls as a unit of 6 for ages, it was a good number for any size game. Perfect for vehicles or backfield shooting units. I now upgrade to 8 at 1500+ but keep 6 for smaller games.
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Post by Talonis on Jul 22, 2012 8:55:09 GMT
I second Ymgarls in 6's. Worked for me too. As for Hormies out of Synapse, you start them outside of synapse, hope they get rage, then just make sure that the unit you are charging gets covered by synapse during your move & Run phase to get the hormies back in synapse. this way they may rage and gain the bonus, and if they do loose the combat, will be inside synapse and fearless again |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 22, 2012 18:58:13 GMT
As for me, I haven't had much success with y genes at all. So, I can't say past the over watch AND I 1 that they will get cc.
Reason they don't work for me? I choose close and my opponents park rhinos in the terrain, they die. I choose far away? They come in and don't do anything. I try to choose middle as much as I can, because my opponent will camp a squad or 2 in their terrain to hold objectives anyway. So, a lot of the time my opponent guesses which price of terrain it is and uses the speed of his models to destroy me.
Though, other people have said 6, and it worked for them, so 6 it is haha
Still no, you will be running every turn until you try to get to close combat. Bounding leap is lost with prime (actually, not really. Model by model basis so your hormagaunts will be moving far faster than your tyranid prime and therefore she won't be in the front)
Normally I would say you are totally wrong and that termagants have no problem getting into range for their guns. However, that logic of mine assumes target saturation which with the lack of threatening models (no offense) may become more difficult. I play the game with the mindset that I want my opponent to shoot the wrong thing. In that example list, I felt like I was missing something, and i think I remembered, one of the guards where actually venomthropes. My tactic wasn't that difficult to grasp, charge forward with a fnp cover saved trygon and have the opponent deal with it and my 20-30 (how many gants where actually there escapes me) while my tervigans either went forward with the trygon to keep it alive or hold back for the purposes of objectives and spawn last minute to avoid shots on the poor gants I spawned.
It won me a majority of my games, my only issues really as people know was chaos ad lash moving my models into tactically unsound positions.
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Post by marmotzero on Jul 22, 2012 21:21:19 GMT
I'd leave the warriors at home and play lower point games. Warriors are simply not that good, and your army will be stronger if they're not there.
I see two ways to run your primes:
1) As a meat shield for your genestealers, devilgaunts, or swarmlord. Put him waaay out in front of the unit so he takes all the shots. No upgrades... maybe regeneration. The types of guns required to kill the prime quickly are different from the type of guns that will mow down genestealers or gaunts, so the unit will take a lot more work to kill.
2) Killy. LS/BS, toxin sacs, scything talons. Put him in the back of a unit with a lot of meat that's really not worth shooting (like non-upgrade rippers).
Take the swarmlord... he's awesome. Make sure he has some bodies for a cover save, he WILL get shot.
Take the gargoyles, no upgrades, and run them straight at the enemy. There is a 100% chance they will die, but they'll provide cover for a turn or two and force the enemy to shoot something almost worthless.
Run the hive guard. Proxy the pyrovore as a biovore and take a unit of 2. Pod the devilgaunts (I made pretty decent spores by going to a dollar store and finding ladybug lawn ornaments. When I cut off the head and legs, there was a plastic shell that looked spore-like. I stuck it on a base and primed it and actually got some compliments! I'd go to a dollar store and poke around)
Split the genestealers into 2 units of 8. Be patient and hug cover.
Hormagaunts... will be tough to deliver into combat. The problem with your models is that there are not enough things you own that are an imminent early game threat. Your opponent will always have several turns to shoot you down before you become a threat. I would take them with no upgrades as one giant unit. Hope that the swarmlord rolls endurance.
Here's what I have so far:
Prime - 95
LW/BS
Swarmlord - 280 (roll 4x biomancy, and remember his buffing special rules for preferred enemy and furious charge)
3x Hive Guard - 150
1x Zoanthrope - 60
8x genestealer - 108
8x genestealer - 108
20x Devilgaunt - 240
- Devourers
- Mycetic Spore
10x termagaunt - 50
26x hormagaunts - 156
10x rippers - 100
10x gargoyles - 60
2x biovore - 90
1497 points (I think)
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Post by squash on Jul 22, 2012 22:34:57 GMT
Yeah, an average d6 roll is 3.5, whereas the average of 3d6 picking the highest is 4.9. I think the unit can afford losing an inch or two in running to benefit from 'look out sir!'.
That's a terrible mindset. I don't know about you but I don't play against idiots, they know my codex and they target the right thing every time.
Well, firstly, the OP doesn't HAVE any trygons or tervigons, so nice suggestion. Secondly, spawn last minute? Every time a tervigon spawns, it has a 44.4% chance of rolling doubles. You cannot count on a tervigon to continually spawn until the end of the game, that is insane troll logic.
Secondly, you don't need venomthropes to give trygons cover saves anymore, rippers and hormagaunts can do it just fine.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 23, 2012 5:00:12 GMT
It's not "hope they make a wrong decision" it's "put enough threats On the board so no matter wht decision they make it's a bad one.
Monstrous creatures and units like it, people will normally not divide fire until they are dead with a few exceptions baring range issues. (yes I mean multiple units before someone decided to be a smart ass and say units can't divide fire bar special rules)
In my example list, I have a trygon an 2 tervigans. In this edition that lists logic only got better. Before, in 2 out of 3 missions, it was a choice between taking out my trygon charging forward with their anti tank, or take out the tervigans who give them feel no pain and score. More often than not, in a tank heavy or even infantry heavy environment, the trygon is lagutamatly a better option because once its on the other side of the board it will do a lot of damage. Hell, even shooting at the tervigans instead would mean that the trygon is getting over unharmed. And maybe in 1 game, has an opponent managed to gun down a T6 6 wound 3+ save mc with 5+ cover in 1 turn (4+ cover if I can manage)
Now, then we get to the gants who are easily fit into area terrain becaus of their unit size. They have guns that destroy any infantry that pop out of the rhinos I shot down with hive guard. Hive guard are a pretty big threat to all transport vehicles.
Remember I mentioned one of the hive guard units in the above list was actually a venomthrope unit. That gave coversaves to my trygon/ tervigan as they marched forward.
Now I ask you, with your non-idiot gaming group, which is the target of priority? The scoring unit that won't die to bolster fire and weapons that will kill it will die to the monstrous creature with fleet if they DIY deal with it, while being able to hold even more objectives with spawning capabilities? Or is it the similarly tough mc that is making the third mc very tough to touch outside ap 1-2? How about the 3rd 6 wound mc who is getting 2 saves (feel no pain and cover/armor) from every shot you fire while marching down the board. How about the unit of venoms joined by a prime so that thy can't be smushed by missiles and infantry fire isn't usually long enough to reach them early game. And of course there are 2 units of termagants who an lagutamatly do a but of damage by aren't early game close enough to take much damage, and late game are the most lethal.
What is the best option? Because I see you shooting the objective holding tervigan to leave my assault unimpeeded. I see the feel no pain tervigan has cover and will take more than a turn to kill (giving me time to switch catalyst to it causing you to choose if you wil divide fire or not). I see shooting the trygon taking away my monstrous creature smash for things like landraiders at 1250, but then I can still pop a rhino or 2 a turn with hive guard, and I still have my mc scoring unit. I see the venomthropes as a target being an issue because of the time it takes to get rid of them with the prime attached.
You can aim for my troops, but tervigans make that foly. And remember then game is 5 to 7 turns, and no matter what you decided in that list, in a 5th edition game (it's a 5th edition list as I said) at 1250, it would take 2-3 turns of normal fire to have moved onto a new unit. I always ha options, and every unit filled multiple rolls. It is the FIRST thing I learned here that I never forgot. Tyranids need to focus on working in unison with each other and they need to make sure the opponent always make a bad decision, which does *not* mean mind games and hoping for stupidity. It means target saturation in list building and game technique.
I would call you stupid but I forgot how long I was off, so you don't actually know my techniques offhand. Let me explain but first point out I did say "this is the kind of list I did use in 5th" so not everything still applies, and my suggestion for the op's list where in bullets because it WAS (and I thought still was) give policy to not make other peoples lists for them, just edit lists that are presented and the reasons why adding more constructive list procuction and personal growth.
Onto the tervigan logic. Never, ever, spawn. That is suicide for the exact reason you gave. 44% chance of losing something you might need later is just silly. The codex does not state you have to spawn. It states you may. It is an option of the tervigan, not a requirement. As such, it is very flexible.
You spawn on these occasions
1) you need a wall. Tervigans don't like getting charged.
2) the unit you are charging is shooting oriented or causing other units a problem. Furious charge and poison together makes for a mean charge.
3) and most prominent, turn 5. Spawn 6" away from the tervigan, move 6" and run d6" for what is a 13-18" range of obtaining an objective last minute, similar to what eldar do (with the tervigan itself moving 6" and has a chance of its own to get an objective) or charge with the gants to try and contest an objective held.
If you spawn every turn to make the most gants possible, you are losing this advantage. And in one of the game types 5th and 6th giving your opponent kills for the purposes of mission objectives.
Hope that cleared that up.
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sorry for the double post but I seems I missed this.
Enlighten me, how exactly do ripper swarms cover 25% of a trygon? Or hormagaunts for that matter...
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But I'm not really asking what I should buy, I'm asking how to make what I currently have, work. I really wish I had a Trygon or Tervigon, or a couple of them. I think that would help me out quite a bit.
