putting a prime with?

[revx]

i see people saying putting your prime with (insert brood that arent warriors here).

what does this do exactly? alpha warrior only works for other warriors right?

[wisdomseyes1]

we normally say that because alpha warrior, while is coolish, only works on warriors who are themselves frowned upon (or were, I dont think S8 has changed that much)

It is (was) great because of its flexibly as an independent character. Old wound allocation (and likely new look out sir) made it useful.

Used with gants to give it tons of 5 point extra wounds.
Used with Carnifex to give it cover (doesnt work anymore I believe, but look out sir gives it nice little tricks)
Used with Zoanthropes to absorb S8+ from instant death
Used with tyrant guard to make a deathstar.

ext ext. Warriors are (were) considered to expensive to play or justify putting the prime with them just for the increase in stats which only insignificantly effected the shooting aspect.

I keep using past tense because I threw away any "automatic" thoughts I had on units when the new edition came out

[revx]

sorry for all the questions but i'm trying to understand all the different things going on, also i dont have my 40k rule book handy right now.

(or were, I dont think S8 has changed that much) - im not sure what you mean by this.

how does the new look out sir work?

why do gaunts get 5 point extra wounds?
how did/does it give the fex cover?
i guess im not understanding ID. i thought only certain weapons caused ID.
whats a deathstar =P

[gloomfang]

I use mine with my Swarmlord to take the annoying challanges and to avoid things like MSS and Loki. Also helps he has a LW/BS so he can really help in CC.

[maeloke]

Jul 20, 2012 19:45:33 GMT revx said:

sorry for all the questions but i'm trying to understand all the different things going on, also i dont have my 40k rule book handy right now.

(or were, I dont think S8 has changed that much) - im not sure what you mean by this.

how does the new look out sir work?

why do gaunts get 5 point extra wounds?
how did/does it give the fex cover?
i guess im not understanding ID. i thought only certain weapons caused ID.
whats a deathstar =P

-look out sir: 4+ check to move a wound from a character to a member of his unit within 6". Independent characters (Tyranid Primes) upgrade this to a 2+.
-Gaunts dont get extra wounds. Wisdomeyes is referring to the Prime using Look out Sir to effectively gain a additional wounds by sacrificing cheap models in the unit.
-It doesn't grant fex cover - cover is figured on a model-by-model basis now.
-ID is a special rule *or* a wound with a strength twice that of the toughness of a wounded model. Many of our midrange units are T4 and are therefore ID'd by weapons of str 8+
-Deathstars are heavy mixed-composition units which use wound allocation tricks to maximize their survival. They have become very easy to abuse with the new 'look out sir' rules.

The primary reason people are attaching Primes to non-warrior units is the Look Out Sir issue. A prime attached and at the front of a unit of 3 carnifexen can use Look Out Sir to lay 3 wounds on each 'fex before any of them have to die (this is a deathstar). Or, the Prime can cheat his wounds off onto the cheaper bugs in his unit to stay in the fight longer himself.

[killme304]

Look Out, Sir is actually good for the gaunts too, it makes them more durable.

I'll explain, LO,S states "When a wound (or unsaved wound)..." pg 16 first sentence under LO,S.

A Prime has 3+ armor. You take as many saves as a prime can (so 3 at a time if it has no wounds, 2 if it has 1, and 1 at a time if it has 2 on it already). For each one you pass, the wound is saved. For each one you fail, you can then take the LO,S, and on a 2+, one gaunt withing 6" of the prime dies. This means you can take all kinds of bolter fire and only lose 2-3 gaunts.

[wisdomseyes1]

Jul 22, 2012 12:52:56 GMT killme304 said:

Look Out, Sir is actually good for the gaunts too, it makes them more durable.

I'll explain, LO,S states "When a wound (or unsaved wound)..." pg 16 first sentence under LO,S.

A Prime has 3+ armor. You take as many saves as a prime can (so 3 at a time if it has no wounds, 2 if it has 1, and 1 at a time if it has 2 on it already). For each one you pass, the wound is saved. For each one you fail, you can then take the LO,S, and on a 2+, one gaunt withing 6" of the prime dies. This means you can take all kinds of bolter fire and only lose 2-3 gaunts.

Cheesy now gants are t5 and have a 3+ save it seems? Haha

[guns]

Jul 22, 2012 19:45:56 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Jul 22, 2012 12:52:56 GMT killme304 said:

Look Out, Sir is actually good for the gaunts too, it makes them more durable.

I'll explain, LO,S states "When a wound (or unsaved wound)..." pg 16 first sentence under LO,S.

A Prime has 3+ armor. You take as many saves as a prime can (so 3 at a time if it has no wounds, 2 if it has 1, and 1 at a time if it has 2 on it already). For each one you pass, the wound is saved. For each one you fail, you can then take the LO,S, and on a 2+, one gaunt withing 6" of the prime dies. This means you can take all kinds of bolter fire and only lose 2-3 gaunts.

Cheesy now gants are t5 and have a 3+ save it seems? Haha

You use majority toughness, so no, the Prime will actually have T3 instead. But will get to use his own armour save.

[coredump]

Jul 22, 2012 12:52:56 GMT killme304 said:

Look Out, Sir is actually good for the gaunts too, it makes them more durable.

I'll explain, LO,S states "When a wound (or unsaved wound)..." pg 16 first sentence under LO,S.

A Prime has 3+ armor. You take as many saves as a prime can (so 3 at a time if it has no wounds, 2 if it has 1, and 1 at a time if it has 2 on it already). For each one you pass, the wound is saved. For each one you fail, you can then take the LO,S, and on a 2+, one gaunt withing 6" of the prime dies. This means you can take all kinds of bolter fire and only lose 2-3 gaunts.

Folks this is *NOT* how it works. Once the Prime fails his saving throw, that unsaved wound is his, no LOS allowed.

And yes, all of the wounds would roll against T3.


Do this for each group of wounds in the wound pool

All saves the same: Roll all saves, Allocate Unsaved Wound, LOS or not, roll FnP (If all models have the same FnP, you can roll all FnP when you roll the saves)

Mixed saves: Allocate Wound, LOS or not, roll saves, roll FnP...

The key is that LOS triggers immediately on the *allocation*.

So *no* taking a save and then LOS

[gloomfang]

Jul 22, 2012 12:52:56 GMT killme304 said:

Look Out, Sir is actually good for the gaunts too, it makes them more durable.
<snips>

It doesn't work that way. You are mixing up Mixed savings throws and standard throws. You can only allocate unsaved wounds with a LOS! roll in standard armor saves.

By diffrent they mean "Would have had to roll a dice with a diffrent number to pass."

For example:
With my group of 4(1W) guys in 4+ armor with the IC(2W) with a 4++ Save. Now lets say that for this example the order from closest to the shooter is Grunt, IC, Grunt, Grunt.

They all get hit with an AP5 weapon that wounds 6 times. I roll 6 dice needing 4s or better and get 3 failed saves. I now have to allocate those 3 wounds starting from the closest model. I remove the grunt closest to me first. The IC is next and the player can choose to LOS! the unsaved wound. He choses to LOS! and one of the other grunts dies from the unsaved wound. As the IC is still the closest model I allocate the next wound to him again. He decides to LOS! again, but fails and looses a wound.


Now lets say they get hit with an AP3 weapon that wounds 6 times. Now I just remove the closest grunt as he has no armor. I then have to choose to make my IC take invuln saves or LOS! rolls. He decides to go for the LOS! rolls and passes both of them and the two other grunts die. Now there are 3 wounds still to be allocated and the IC is the only target so he rolls 3 Invuln saves.

Make sense?

*EDIT
NINJAED by Coredump.

[Gravekeeper]

It is really good for a Warrior Prime to join with any of our multi wound units (warriors, carnifexes, venomthropes, etc...)

You stick the prime in the front so that he is probably the closest to get shot. Since any wound allocated to him can be LOS on 2+ you can allocate it to ANY one of the models within 6" making it possible to spreading out the wounds to different models, evoiding cassulties and makes the unit more durable (and keeps your Prime intact for the most part)