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Post by Talonis on Jul 19, 2012 20:53:00 GMT
I have an idea which could help to inspire you to paint and play with your tyranids, and even play games which doesn't mean you need to always win:
Write your self a campaign. Based on a tyranids invasion and it is up to the defenders toclear out areas or certain scenarios come up which allow you to "stack the odds" in your favour.
You could start out with smaller kill team mission, where a scouting force is over run by a bigger force, but needs to escape the board.
If they escape they can launch a counter attack and try to clear the area. If they loose, the tyranids get to attack somewhere with a few special rules to show they have the element of surprise.
Games like these which link together are excellent, and story driven, so it doesn't really matter who wins and allows you to get that freshly painted model you really enjoy on the table, even if you wouldn't normally put it in.
Have another read through your codex, get inspired by a battle or fluff piece and figure out a list which you could use to represent this with the models you have.
Remember not every game needs to be 1750, 2000 or high, play some smaller games, I find tyranids to be fairly deadly at low level points...
As above people have said, post some battle reports and pictures, we will do all we can to give advise and tips on how to devour your opponents.
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Post by Xantige on Jul 20, 2012 0:00:33 GMT
swarm492 and coredump, you guys ninja'd me  so sorry if my first post seemed to ignore you both. I just want to start by apologizing for this convoluted, rather negative thread (and my other post). I wish I'd taken some time to cool off before posting this. I really wanted to know -- just in a hypothetical, friendly way -- what other dex might fit Tyranids. But instead I poured acid all over it... all the same, thanks for the advice and putting up with my annoyance and anger and addressing the bigger issue. You're right, winning isn't the only thing that's important to me. And yes, I'm new gamewise. I sadly have a hard time getting a game in (I arrive at the club too late and can't stay late enough for the second round of games in most cases). And when I do, I'm usually predestined to lose, because, yes, I don't have many models to play with. I don't even have enough other models to proxy with. Combine that with me being new, and losing is just how it goes. I can deal with that. The part that gets to me is hearing people look down on nids -- not just one or two people -- but almost everyone. I almost feel like I'd have been better off if I hadn't gone looking for tactical advice when I got my army, and just tried it out myself. I'll do my best to take photos of my next battle report. I'm terrible at remembering what all happened, even with pictures, but I'll try. It's not that hard to have a camera on hand when I've got a phone with one. Talonis, that's not a bad idea. Although I'm a bit hesitant to make a campaign like that. Being new, I'm not sure if i really have the knowledge or talent to make something fun, and not too incredibly one sided. But I admit, it's something I've wanted to create for a long time. |
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Post by eeknight on Jul 20, 2012 1:36:48 GMT
Maybe I just don't play with competitive people, but I've rarely had anything but fun playing my Tyranids. Yeah, I've had games against Space Wolves where I'm just picking up MC after MC to Longfangs and Jaws, or had Grey Knights instakill just about my whole list (after that, I can very much sympathize with your wanting to bin the codex), but then again I've tabled Tau, Ultramarines, and Orks plenty of times.
I've learned to go by my own experiences rather than what the internet says. Take Warriors. You can find thread after thread online slagging warriors, but my little teams of Prime-led deathspitter warriors with a barbed strangler have been the units that took (or held) that game-winning objective more often than not. I love my warriors and use them in almost every game I play.
In 6th we're adequately fast on the cover-strewn board (Raveners!!!) and we have cheapish units that hit harder than most anything out there in CC. I'm finding, in the three games I've played so far in 6th, that we're a little stronger playing offensive-defensive than pure offensive (i.e. use speed to grab objectives and then hunker down and dare the enemy to try and dislodge you. I've had Space Marines die in very satisfying waves trying to dislodge tervigon-backed devilgaunts in a ruin). I love our ability to wreak havoc in the backfield with our deepstrikers and spores.
Okay, we're not super great at anything, except CC, and we still don't have a reliable answer for flyers, but we're a pretty well-rounded army that can adapt to an individual's play-style. The scenarios in 6th mean that most of the time you'll have to win with infantry, and we eat infantry. Literally.
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Post by demoric on Jul 20, 2012 2:19:43 GMT
Tyranids are my favorite army to bring. I frequently run sub-optimal lists than run counter to internet "wisdom". These lists are fun to play for both me and my opponents. I frequently play against Grey Nights, Necrons, Space Wolves, Orks, and Space Marines, in my local meta Nids do very well. I win/tie almost all of my games, and very rarely loose. In fact I have a Grey Knights player who complains about how overpowered 'Nids are. It has alot to do with using synergy, and subterfuge. Alot of the problem with learning to play nids comes down to learning who to shoot and who to assault with your units. Most importantly is to learn that all your units are expendable and that mass deaths of units is just a minor setback, or a carefully planned ruse.
Lastly if you play against alot of MEQ small 1000pt. or less games really hamper their choices, but don't affect 'nids as much. Play some of them, learn HOW to take on some of the core units in lists. It will be easier, and more importantly it won't take as long as a 2000pt. game so you will have more time to learn/play.
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Post by swarm492 on Jul 20, 2012 3:21:14 GMT
^ thats something important to remember, remembering to play matches within your pnt limit. By that I mean not over extending your force to barely meet the pnts, simply shrink the matches pnt value.
As far as dex switching is concerned I'm not to sure if any of the other dexes really work in the place of the nids codex.. you could always spice things up and hunt down the two issues of citadel minatures mag that has the last update for the genestealer cult army list. You wouldnt believe the faces people made when I showed up with that. But I'd recomend that only as a pet project.
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Post by scrotatohead on Jul 20, 2012 4:07:35 GMT
I've never understood the desire of so many players to focus on and flock to the top tier armies. I imagine the players who fielded Grey Knights in 5th are all scrambling building Necron Armies in 6th just so they can maximize their chances of being super-duper-oober-competitive-look-at-me-winner-winner-chicken-dinner. If we were talking about the NBA your local gamers would all be Lakers or Heat fans. That's fine for them. If someone needs the toughest army out there to win, to enjoy the game, and feel good about themselves, well, what ever. Personally, I LIKE 'nids BECAUSE they are a mid-tier army. I like that 'nids require me to do some of the work to win. I like that our units have unique looks to them. Tentacles. Talons. Scuttling 'gants and 'gaunts. Hulking monstrosities. Winged death. No other army, in my opinion has the 40k look that ours does. I like that our units need to work together for us to win. And in 6th I LOVE that we're the psyker bad-asses.
Xantige,
What other people think should really only matter in terms of how much you want to change their opinion. Do you really care that they don't think 'nids are competitive? If you don't, kindly tell them to shut the **** up. You don't bad mouth their armies, they shouldn't bad mouth yours. They've said their piece, tell them to move on for god's sake and start rolling some dice.
And I second the idea of playing kill team missions. Small point levels so you don't get overwhelmed trying to list build. Quick to set up, quick to resolve. Look at it as a way to try different units. You'll only be using a couple at a time. Gives you a chance to learn the strengths and weaknesses of units and unit combinations. And at small point levels some of our models can be downright nasty to the enemy. Plus your opponents can't rely on net lists to "prove" how much better their armies are than 'nids.
But most of all, never lose focus on why you like the game in the first place. I enjoy building, customizing, and painting more than anything else. I win, but I'm no power gamer, and honestly, I think I'm the king of the Draw result. I struggle to build lists, and most of my fellow gamers aren't really good. So I'm honest with myself in that I'm not winning because of my skill level. But even if I was losing more than winning, as long as the people I was gaming with were decent people I wouldn't have a problem with it. If your gaming group continue to tear down your army I suggest you call them on it, point out that their sucking the fun out of it for you. We get it, the Miami Heat are the BEST BASKETBALL TEAM EVER, why would anyone even think of liking a team like the Denver Nuggets?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously, tell them all to shut the **** up and move on so everyone can get back to gaming and having a good time.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 20, 2012 4:32:54 GMT
Won't get into tournaments anytime soon, but I've seen it done. Not sure where you're getting that our new 'dex sucks, though. It's not top tier, but not bottom tier either, just sorta ok. SPACE IS BACK!!! I forgot you came back, haha. In my time playing magic competitively, I have found one fact that is true everywhere. If it isnt considered the best, it isnt considered worth playing in the eyes of a person who is competitively oriented. the new codex was supposedly written with this edition in mind right away. Tyranids was supposed to be, according to various popular sources (blogs websites) the first "6th edition" codex before 6th edition came out, using unconfirmed rules in mind. Obviously later codecies got the better deal having more concrete rules to go by. And that said, there are some new amendments to the rules you know hit us in unconformable places (see genestealers, see lack of AA, see lack of allis which would offset the lack of AA). There are also new additions that we do like (Poison, look out sir (tyrant is now an IC when he is with guard which is a good thing now) addition of new psychic powers that most of our armies FOC can take. ) It is,to be perfectly honest, this way for a very long time. Just as in Magic the gathering a card/deck sucks/ is "rouge and not competitive" until one or more people win a major tournament or 2 and everyone buys a copy of that deck (thus inflating the prices of the cards in question) warhammer 40k players will make fun of tyranids until they consistently place at the top of tournaments. And as they do, more people will begin to say "tyranids can win" and "they just recently placed top" and we will have more of the power gamers willing to carry over if they believe that tyranids can place first place. in 5th, this didnt happen often enough to convince anyone, so fr this edition, we will have to wait and see. who knows, they may be right. there maay be no competitive reason to play tyranids... but last I checked, terminators are becoming more common. On a theory standpoint, no effective ways to deal with new vehicles (like flyers) and the new charge rules changing so that skill is less of the game and luck is more needed for an army whose close combat based (even with fleet increasing our chances.) I am not a fan of everything bar beasts and jump infantry being just as fast as each other when it comes to assault ranges, but hormagaunts/ genestealers just less likely to say "oh its to far for me this time"? Dont you be hating on daemons >_> though, new smash rules made blood thirsters cry. Daemons did get quite a few now tricks I am eager to try in game. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 20, 2012 7:09:34 GMT
Xantige: Don't sweat it. I can tell you this with certainty. If the folks at your LGS think they know which armies will be strong and weak in 6E; they are fools. Check out the blogs, no one is willing to admit knowing that. (okay, except for Crons...)
No one is sure how the meta is going to work out. And I am betting that most of the folks at your LGS are not 'top teir' anyway. Tactics and strategy are going to matter more than codex at your level.
Let us help you build a list, and let us help you critique your bat rep. (even as much as you can remember). Just imagine how sweet it will be when your '(please do not swear) nids' thrash their armies.....
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Post by warischoy on Jul 20, 2012 15:49:14 GMT
i don't mind people saying nids are bad because it does take alot of pressure off my shoulders. I play to get better at playing so i can win and on the way have fun. So if people say you play a bad army there is less emphasis on you being a bad player but more on the fact that your codex isn't very good if you lose.
imagine that you are very bad at the game and you play an OP codex such as Necrons with the usual net list that features 2 surflords and doomscythes or something and you are playing against chaos marines for example. There is more pressure for you to win as you have the upperhand. Whereas if you play Nids and you are at a disadvantage it is only normal that you lose.
So just look at it as some sort of challenge and if people say they suck then say you don't care because you like the army and want a challenge.
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Post by biomassbob on Jul 20, 2012 21:48:47 GMT
I think the thing to keep in mind, as some others have said, is that 6th edition is new and it will be a while before people are sure what works and will continue to work in a given army. Yes the dex has issues, but try different units/lists/styles. You may find that a unit that many wouldn't take in 5th is more popular now. I have only played a few games of 6th but am enjoying using biovores (large blast/barrage/pinning/long range and cheap) in my lists when in 5th they didn't really fit/work. If the meta in your area shifts to less mech it is certainly a plus for nids (and destroying vehicles in CC and through shooting is better for nids too).
I think I recall you mentioning before that you don't have a lot of nids but most people will let you proxy stuff so you can try various things to see what unit you like and fit into your play style. If you are playing veterans and are new then certainly you are at a disadvantage, but hopefully you can find people that can help you have enjoyable games where you can also learn and experiment with what units you like to see what works for you.
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Post by Xantige on Jul 20, 2012 22:31:13 GMT
@skrotatohead - The guys at my LGS don't talk smack about nids -- at least not in the typical way. They're polite and educated people, they only talk smack to those that they know they can talk smack too. In a way, when they smack talk the 2 fellows that bring in their nid armies, you can tell the smack talk isn't really to do with the nids, it's just how those two people game against eachother. Even then, the smack talk is minimal. The bad-talk about nids in my LGS is more calm and "factual" and slightly humourous. Usually the topic comes up if I ask a question in terms of Tyranids, or sometimes it just randomly comes up because they're talking about another guy with nids. The general consensus there is that Tyranids got a bit better, but also a bit worse. They feel that the army really isn't worth playing if you were just getting into the game. They just don't see it as either competitive or fun. But, by that token, if you showed up with bugs for a friendly game, they'd be happy to play you (though I imagine the few competitive players might take some jabs at you). That said, at my LGW (NOT my LGS) the talk is more low brow and uneducated. Granted, my LGW has become more barren of late, and I rarely go in there anymore, so I'm not subjected to the annoying "Nids suck haw haw get a real army" from squeaky voiced boys, to men with the mentality of squeaky boys. warischoy - You know... I like that way of looking at it. I've been looking at it from the opposite side. I felt that because nids are seen as one of the worst armies, that put pressure on me to make them win. I never thought that maybe it'd work the other way around... @everyone - I'll be honest, I'm not really happy with the idea that playing Tyranids requires skill and careful thought to net a win. I admit, I'm the sort of person that would enjoy a "point and click" army. I just don't have time or the desire to study and practice tactics; I have other hobbies that mean more to me. In a balanced game, I don't mind losing to a better gamer, I'd hate to win out of imbalance... but I also hate losing just because I have an "inferior" army. I also hate losing the same way over and over. Though, paradoxically, there are times I don't care whether I win, lose, or tie, as long as I'm having fun with the other person. Usuaully though, I don't have much in common with the other gamers, other than gaming, so the focus is on the game and the result. These people, sadly, aren't people I have much in common with outside of 40k, so forming a friendship is hard. I may always be a bit of an outsider in their group, but not because they give me the cold shoulder. |
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Post by Sledgehammer on Jul 20, 2012 22:33:37 GMT
BTW, Crons are not that tough...
...at least against Nids! I crushed them pretty much in my first 6th Ed game. I guess that was partly because I was lucky, exploded his Stalker in turn 1 and his Command Barge in turn 2 with my Zoans. Ripped the Monolith to shreds with my CC-Flyrant in turn 3 and the rest was easy...
However, the supposedly strongest Army in 6th shines mainly at one thing: killing Vehicles - bad news (for them) is: we don't have any. And a cheap unit like 16 Hormagants make short work of a lord.
A general hint: forget the interweb's lists! Play against the meta that makes you unpredictable. I've always done well with my nids - It's not autowin, but I generally win more than I lose and (surprise) I have never fielded Hive Guards (yet) which (by internet wisdom) means: I cannot win - well, I still do.
I've heard so many people say, Zoans are no good any more - well, mine usually shine and if they don't, they still suck up a ridiculous amount of incoming fire.
Since our last Codex Fexes are overpriced, I still use a Devilfex most of the time and it does well. And I believe, with the new rules even a CC-Fex might be a good option again.
And hello, those pesky fearless wounds are gone for good you can tarpit almost everything with supercheap units.
Really, 6th is our friend!
Well, we've got no decent AA (yet) but with some luck a Devilfex or devil Tyrant can shoot a flyer down in one volley.
And (I gotta agree with coredump here) outflanking stealers really got boned - so what? Don't outflank them anymore. There are other uses for them eg. use them as Yrmgarls.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 21, 2012 0:15:18 GMT
do you remember how many more points yealers are? and, what FOC slot they are in? its hard to justify anything of the like
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Post by Sledgehammer on Jul 21, 2012 0:56:08 GMT
Well there's room for one brood easily. Two, if I don't take lictors. And yes, they are pricey, but they can attack the instant they arrive and i they don't destroy, what they attack, you're doing something wrong.
AND, I didn't say, that's the only use. Sit a small brood with a lord on every mission objective you can reach (provided it's in cover) - talk about psyker spam. With them sitting there the enemy either shoots them (good - he doesn't shoot at anything else then) or if he (ideally) can't see them has to attack them (good luck!).
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Post by Blank on Jul 21, 2012 3:41:26 GMT
Hello, Longtime lurker here. I've never felt compelled to post on any forum of any kind. However, I do frequent these boards to see what the hive mind has to say on certain subjects. This topic and the posts within it have hit a soft spot for me and I wanted to share.
I've played 'Nids since the end of 4th ed. I picked them because they looked amazing and I generally go for the heroic good guys, but man, Tyranids just looked so freaking cool. My gaming group of about 6 guys total do not play competitively. One of them plays so fluffy that we've made it a rule that he wins just surviving 4 rounds against anyone. One thing to note, I win a lot of games. I play with a lot of silly models strictly because I like the model.
It sounds like you need a better gaming group. I know easier said than done. Play for yourself though. If you're not enjoying the game don't force it. The support in this forum is mind boggling. In most forums you would see "who cares get a new codex"--"why are you still here then?"--etc. However, here you have people begging you to let them help you. I say accept the help.
Post a thread with the models you have available and a base list. Sure you'll get a "I would suggest investing into X model" here and there but no one (that you should take seriously) will tell you "don't bother with playing with these models, it's pointless"
Ask your group to start up an escalation league. I like the suggestions of don't play with more than you have or can handle. It slows the learning process and can get you aggravated. Even when people start new armies they like to do escalations. It helps on the pocketbook AND in the learning of the new army. Warhammer is full of elitist and jerks. I don't play at our LGS because I would rather play than argue RAW and such for hours. However, as proven on this forum, it's also full of people who want to play and enjoy the game and want others to do the same. Winning is nice and fun, but a good group of friends will make you forget about winners and losers. I can't tell you how many times we've finished a game and forget to check to see who won; we call a lot of ties.
Anyway, I'm sorry I was so long winded. But the main thing was have fun. If you want a point and click army go for it. Having fun is what it's all about. However, I have tried other armies via proxy and borrowing models. NONE of them are as creative and unique as Tyranid, so no matter the situation I just like seeing my bugs on the table. Also, I wish my team at work was as supportive to each other as the complete strangers on this forum. I applaud you all. Good luck, Xantige, keep us updated.
-Blank
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so sorry if my first post seemed to ignore you both. I just want to start by apologizing for this convoluted, rather negative thread (and my other post). I wish I'd taken some time to cool off before posting this. I really wanted to know -- just in a hypothetical, friendly way -- what other dex might fit Tyranids. But instead I poured acid all over it... all the same, thanks for the advice and putting up with my annoyance and anger and addressing the bigger issue.
"
