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Post by Xantige on Jul 19, 2012 9:57:37 GMT
The title speaks for itself, more or less. I know some purists will (ironically) shout "Heresy!" at the idea of using Tyranid models, but another 40k codex... but I've had about all I can take when it comes to hearing about how much Tyranids suck. Nothing dampens my drive to paint and make lists and otherwise enjoy this hobby, than the endless talk from parroting boys to intellectual tactians alike, agreeing that there's no reason to play Tyranids this edition, unless you're some form of masochist.
Yes, I'm hamming this up a little, but the heart of it is still true. Even the awesome gamers at my club shake their heads at the bugs. I may be 1 of 3 nid players there, but the other 2 have had their collects since 4th ed, and they only bring their bugs in once in a while. The fun players and the competitive players all seem to agree that the Tyranid codex (and/or the rules themselves) are a mess for Tyranids. Almost all of them agree that the army is tough to play, and not overly fun or satisfying to the same degree as other armies are.
So to the meat of this thread... do you guys think that any of the other codices would be a better fit for us, than our current one? Granted, I know that our lack of Vehicles, and the lack of MC's in other armies makes this a tough thing no matter how you slice it. Consider this topic only half serious, half thought provoking. To be honest, I really wish i culd pick up even a slightly less convoluted codex than the one we currently have...
I'm not familiar with all the armies, but I do have the Ork Codex, and I can't help but feel that there's something quite niddy with the ork mechnics. Orks are able t field a bunch of boyz, who are very deadly in combat, but can also be good at shooting. There are even times when they're fearless, and times when they're easy to make run. They're numerous, and almost all their units are based off one core design -- all these things are very similar, or the same as Tyranids. Sure, we aren't as random as Orks, and we fire better than them, and we also don't randomly attack eachother on the battlefield. We also have fleet on most/all of our assaulty units, where Orks have to WAAAGH! for theirs...
Really, what this all boils down too, is that I want to have fun, and I can't have fun if I'm a newbie still learning her 'dex, playing against seasoned veterans with top tier armies that look at Tyranid players and say/think "I'm so sorry..." Whether the Tyranid codex sucks or not, it castrates my fun when everyone feeds me this endless stream of why Tyranids suck. I've read so many "tactic" threads and articles across the internet, and everyone seems to agree that we're not easy, and a lot of other armies do what we do, but better. Most of those threads and articles deteriorate into whinefests, and those that don't, tend to beat this idea that the only way to win is with a netlist. People paint this picture of Tyranids being a rewardless army.
(On a side note to those who have read many of the current codices... are we one of the few badly balanced books? Or are ALL the books like ours? With internal and external balance issues and whacky weird rulings that make no sense either for or against them?)
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Post by Space is pretty big on Jul 19, 2012 10:05:43 GMT
Won't get into tournaments anytime soon, but I've seen it done.
Not sure where you're getting that our new 'dex sucks, though. It's not top tier, but not bottom tier either, just sorta ok.
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Post by squash on Jul 19, 2012 10:14:31 GMT
We're a pretty middle of the road codex, the trouble is the vast majority of players use the better codexes.
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Post by Bot on Jul 19, 2012 10:50:37 GMT
Not sure where you're getting that our new 'dex sucks, though. It's not top tier, but not bottom tier either, just sorta ok. +1 Nothing dampens my drive to paint and make lists and otherwise enjoy this hobby, than the endless talk from parroting boys to intellectual tactians alike, agreeing that there's no reason to play Tyranids this edition, unless you're some form of masochist. Just, where are you seeing/hearing this? |
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Post by mhqvick on Jul 19, 2012 11:12:54 GMT
deamons...
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 19, 2012 13:02:52 GMT
I have to sympathize. The negativity in our hobby frequently chafes me.
Personally I'm finding my Tyranids are going on something of a rampage this edition. All the tactics I used in 5th edition are now much easier to pull off. I have the feeling we're going to start seeing Tyranid bandwagoners as the changes from 5th to 6th edition slowly filter through.
Basically you need to stop surrounding yourself with negative people, and change your attitude to a problem-solving one - see problems as opportunities to flex your intellect, and I think you will allow yourself to enjoy your Tyranids.
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Post by Space is pretty big on Jul 19, 2012 13:23:25 GMT
We're a pretty middle of the road codex, the trouble is the vast majority of players use the better codexes. Yeah actually, thats kinda the best way of putting it. |
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Post by Talonis on Jul 19, 2012 13:33:00 GMT
I can't help but laugh every time I hear someone cry over somebody else saying their army suck/isn't competitive/doesn't play as good ect ect...
Here is an idea, build a army list you like without any inspiration from the Internetz net listings, try out units you like and play the army how you want it to. This is the only real way to enjoy what your playing. If you enjoy using another codex to "count as" then do it.
But please do not dismiss Tyranids as competitive, truth is 6th Ed has been out 2 weeks so there is no way of knowing how competitive anyone is. Change your tactics, play a list you have never seen/used before and play it at least 5 times before changing it. New lists may not always perform as well because of the dice, tactics and mind sets need to change or you just had bad luck.
But to at least be somewhat helpful to this tread, I think the orks codex could work well, even using warriors as Nobs, putting one in each brood. Not too sure how vehicles would go, maybe looted vehicles could help choose from a wider selections.
You could even use the allies chart to make warriors count as marines, making venom canons missile launchers?
Plently of options in the new rule sets to choose from.
(Side note: my initial comments were not 100% directed you the OP, just a response to the amount of these posts I see and never say anything in )
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Post by warischoy on Jul 19, 2012 13:34:51 GMT
Just use the forth edition tyranid codex if people let you. They are more likely to let you use the 4th edition tyranid codex than let you use them as codex space marines for example.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 19, 2012 15:17:40 GMT
If I were going to going to go full 'counts as' with a more tournament-competitive army, I think I'd do blood angels. Your leadership is tyranid warriors == terminators with a prime in command. Your troops are genestealers == CC marines and death company. MCs would have to be different flavors of dreadnought, because tank facing would be quite a pain. The real trick is modeling up some wacky nid transport to use as a stormraven  . The simplest proxy army would be Daemons, since there are no vehicles. They're getting a new dex in the next few months, which means they're likely to get more competitive. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 19, 2012 18:11:02 GMT
Dude, the folks at your LGS are fools. This edition looks to be a decent come back for the Nids. Like you said, no one there plays Nids, so why are you taking their opinon as valid?
This is wht The Hive works, we know Nids and can help you build a good list and kick their butts.
Tervifex, gargoyles, Swarmlord/Ironarm, raveners, trashing transports, flyrants, etc....
There are a lot of awesome things about our codex in 6E. Sure, if you insist on running an Outflanking stealer list, you are in a world of hurt. (A moment of silence for my now-defunct favorite army...) But adapt.
Here is my suggestion. Make a list and post it here. Get some feedback. (but be careful, since no one really knows for sure what is good/bad) It should keep you from making huge mistakes.
Play a game, and keep some notes. (Pics would be awesome) Then write a BatReport to get feedback on your strategy and tactics. If you care to message me, I will be sure to comment. And I am sure you will get lots of feedback in any case.
This will make you a better player and unless you plan on winning NOVA or Adepticon, you should be doing fine in short order.
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Post by swarm492 on Jul 19, 2012 18:54:44 GMT
^ thats a great idea, tell us your battle reports so we can help you out. I like may members above are tired of hearing nids suck, when I hear that I think so its not a super duper stackable army like wolves, grey kights, or I.G, who cares? the army isnt bad not by a long shot. I'm not blind the dex does suffer from some internal balance issues but the army works, and not just in one way. The army can be played and can win several different ways. What nids are is different, they dont work with you the same way marines do. The player needs to know how to work the nids more to really see their full capibility.
Useing anouther dex is counter productive because you gain experiance with a different army, if you want to play a different army thats fine but dont give up on your dex. Its not bad it just doesnt read itself to you, well all help you just give us some bulleted questions to keep it simple and well all give you answers.
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Post by Xantige on Jul 19, 2012 19:16:28 GMT
Won't get into tournaments anytime soon, but I've seen it done. Not sure where you're getting that our new 'dex sucks, though. It's not top tier, but not bottom tier either, just sorta ok. I'm getting it from the mouths of all the gamers I meet... and I wish that was a hyperbole. Nothing dampens my drive to paint and make lists and otherwise enjoy this hobby, than the endless talk from parroting boys to intellectual tactians alike, agreeing that there's no reason to play Tyranids this edition, unless you're some form of masochist. Just, where are you seeing/hearing this? From anyone that plays 40k, online and off. The Hive is about the only place that would, on some level, disagree. This time, it's not just from the mouths of little boys that are just being obnoxious. I hear it coming from the mouths of all the long time gamers that really wish Tyranids were playable. The general opinion is, if you don't already have a nid army in 6th, don't bother getting into them, there are better armies to play this edition. Some of them joke that the only reason Tyranid players like 6th is because we suck a little less now, and when you're Tyranids, sucking less is a huge buff. (They used a wonderfully colourful comparison, but I can't repeat it on the hive sadly.) I have to sympathize. The negativity in our hobby frequently chafes me. Personally I'm finding my Tyranids are going on something of a rampage this edition. All the tactics I used in 5th edition are now much easier to pull off. I have the feeling we're going to start seeing Tyranid bandwagoners as the changes from 5th to 6th edition slowly filter through. Basically you need to stop surrounding yourself with negative people, and change your attitude to a problem-solving one - see problems as opportunities to flex your intellect, and I think you will allow yourself to enjoy your Tyranids. We'll I'm glad I'm not alone. Because I LOVE Tyranids... but I hate the drama, and the honesty that people care that we're the worst army out there (or in the bottom 3). I could deal with being sub-average, if this nattering wasn't everywhere... I really hope the tune changes... I can't help but laugh every time I hear someone cry over somebody else saying their army suck/isn't competitive/doesn't play as good ect ect... Here is an idea, build a army list you like without any inspiration from the Internetz net listings, try out units you like and play the army how you want it to. This is the only real way to enjoy what your playing. If you enjoy using another codex to "count as" then do it. But please do not dismiss Tyranids as competitive, truth is 6th Ed has been out 2 weeks so there is no way of knowing how competitive anyone is. Change your tactics, play a list you have never seen/used before and play it at least 5 times before changing it. New lists may not always perform as well because of the dice, tactics and mind sets need to change or you just had bad luck. But to at least be somewhat helpful to this tread, I think the orks codex could work well, even using warriors as Nobs, putting one in each brood. Not too sure how vehicles would go, maybe looted vehicles could help choose from a wider selections. You could even use the allies chart to make warriors count as marines, making venom canons missile launchers? Plently of options in the new rule sets to choose from. (Side note: my initial comments were not 100% directed you the OP, just a response to the amount of these posts I see and never say anything in ) I never laugh in those situations. Maybe it's because I've been in those situations, only replace "their army" with "their face". Some people get into 40k to relax and escape being someone female dog. No one wants to buy their codex and $200 worth or more in models just to hear "your army sucks" for years on end, day in and out. I find nothing funny about laughing at people -- even honest to god whiners -- abut stuff like this. There should be no tiers in 40k, and no tears either. The game ought to be balanced so that the only thing other than dice that determines the winner from the loser, isn't their armies, but their skill. I realize you're not aiming all of what you said at me, I just can't stand for the idea of kicking a victim when they're down, no matter how over dramatic they're being.  I'm a sucky 40k player with few models and fewer to proxy with. I couldn't build a proper list to save my life, let alone deploy and remember that it's an objective game. That's all hard enough to deal with, but the tipper is hearing this endless noise about how Tyranids are subpar, unplayable, gimped, etc, etc. Suddenly I can't just enjoy painting or fielding whatever I want. I suddenly feel the need to show them that Tyranids can win, while also dealing with this idea that Tyranids are insta-lose. I know nids aren't an insta-lose army, but in my hands, in this meta, they are. Ask yourself if you'd still play if you were guaranteed to lose EVERY single game. Would you bother painting the models? Ironically, i don't even want to be a competitive gamer. I just want to focus on putting lovely painted models on the board and making a campaign/story with unusual objectives that change the course of the story. So all this miasma has also made me try seeking something I don't want. It all makes me want to take up Orks, just so I can a pass with being carefree and uncompetitive... because ORKS! |
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Post by swarm492 on Jul 19, 2012 19:32:29 GMT
I know exactly how you feel, when I first started 40k my one friend played templars and over the span of a year and a half I never beat him, so we stopped having games. Funny thing is now I cant remember the last time I lost to him. Also you need to remember when people and the internet says nids suck or are a bad army 95% of the time they are talking about the competative enviornment. Personaly the more stacked a list is the less skill I think it takes the player to win, and most of the time they didnt even come up with the idea. It's just the awsome the internet says it is at the time. Way to go bud did you come up the idea of those 20 missile launchers yourself?
I have played nids for about ten years now and I firmly believe that regardless of dex nids never sucked, but they never handed you a win either. If winning is the main concern theres armies out there that its alot easier to do it with with less time investment needed learning the army..also just plain easier. Stick to your guns, once you get more table time and ahve more minis to work with you will see a change in your win ratio.
Plus you have your priorities right, play the army because you love it, not solely because you can get easy wins.
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Post by coredump on Jul 19, 2012 20:02:20 GMT
Where are you seeing this online?? I keep hearing them get 'over-hyped'. Seriously, what forums are you frequenting?
Yes there are more powerful codices out there. Go ahead and Play Crons if you want. If you are not having fun with Nids, don't play them. But I am just telling you, they are a stronger army than most out there now.
To be honest, part of the problem is you are new, so are not very good (I am assuming) and don't have a lot of models. In that case, you will not do well in any case.
My advice still stands. Make a list, post it. We can help with whatever you have available, and give decent advice on where to go from there.
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