Warning on running broodlords as psykers

[godoftheds]

So i know a bunch of people are looking to run broodlord psyker spam however I ran into an issue in my last game that kinda puts a damper on that. With broodlords still being BS 0 and only mastery level 1 it really limits what random psychic powers can be used. None of the primaris powers we have access to can be used by them. This means of the 7 possibilities for each of our disciplines you can only make use of 4/7 biomancy and telekinesis and only 3/7 telepathy. Now admittedly you can reroll the warp charge 2 powers which makes telepathy a 1/3 chance of being useless, telekinesis a 1/5 chance to be useless and biomancy a 1/3 chance to be useless. With a broodlord this is going to be two rolls on the same table with rerolls allowed to prevent duplicate powers. In my mind this tells me that you should really only consider telekinesis for your broodlords if you don't want to risk a gimped power.

Also to briefly touch on our other psykers I don't think swapping powers out on a hive tyrant or zoanthrope is ever a good idea (warp lance and paraksism is too good (god a butchered that spelling)) I could see swapping out tervigon powers if you didn't take catalyst but since she has a BS there's no worry about getting a truly useless power

Thoughts?

[nurglitch]

Given changes in the rules, I'm pretty doubtful about swapping out the psychic powers on any of the Tyranid psyckers, or depending on them too much.

For example, the disappearance of No Retreat makes Dominion better than it was before, particularly since it can both be used to lock an enemy unit down for a follow-up charge, possibly by the Tervigon itself, and be used to manipulate Instinctive Behaviour: Feed.

Likewise Catalyst is not as good as Endurance, but given the likelihood of not getting Endurance, and having to give up Catalyst, Dominion, or Onslaught as well seems like it throws an opportunity cost into strategic planning.

Broodlords, what with the new character rules, seem to benefit pretty well from Hypnotic Gaze in terms of assassinating enemy characters.

[gloomfang]

On TK only 1/6 powers is can't be used by a Blord. Crush can't be used, but Assail is an autohit power that doesn't need BS. Its why I tend to take TK as I can always default Crush to Assail.

As for keeping/dropping powers it depends on your point of view and the role of your psyker. I take Swarmlord. Swaping out his powers is a no brainer as he has access to the Warp Charge 2 powers and being able to use 2 powers a turn is really great for him. Also I can get Blessings and Maladictions so I can still use 2 powers and run him if I chose without losing his psychic mojo.

Tervigons, well if you think FNP is worth it to keep your powers thats a matter of prefrence. I take 3 powers on mine and roll TK as it has good support powers.

Zoan's it depends on what I am facing. Not a lot of mech I swap out of 1 roll on Telepathy(default to Scream) and 1 roll on TL. Generally I will roll TK on 1 and keep the rest the same.

[godoftheds]

Oh hey good catch on that telekinesis power I completely missed that beams don't roll to hit

[roxor08]

I had a thought about the Tervigon's though, regarding the psychic swap....if people are building them how I've been reading (Crushing claws, AG+TS, and all 3 psychic powers) they become VERY expensive...upwards of 200+ points.

Is that worth it? I have yet to play with the new edition, but I thought I'd ask


Sorry I don't mean to hijack the thread!

[nurglitch]

The Broodlord still can't use it: BS0 means no shooting whatsoever. See p.3 of the rulebook, under Zero-level Characteristics.

[gloomfang]

Jul 17, 2012 15:34:43 GMT nurglitch said:

The Broodlord still can't use it: BS0 means no shooting whatsoever. See p.3 of the rulebook, under Zero-level Characteristics.

Debatable.
I guess it is like the rule for the Bro Banner in the other tread you are debating.
You are in the camp that you always "roll the dice" even on something that auto-anything. If that is your view then you are right as we can not "roll to hit" do to BS0.

The other camp is that Auto-anything means that there is no dice rolled required. I am in that camp. If you were forced to roll then the Rule of 1 comes into play and violates the autohit.

Both sides have the rules on thier side. We need an FAQ. However most people and TOs do not require a dice roll on an autohit.

[nurglitch]

No, it's more like following the rules. A model with Ballistic Skill '0' cannot shoot.

[Davor]

So what do you guys say if the BL is rolls for a shooting attacking? Does he have to keep it and not use it? Since only the rules say to re-roll if the power is 2 or more. Since it's a level one power, does the BL have to accept the roll he can't use?

Also I say since it's a BS of Zero, he can't shoot no matter what. That would also go for the GK power. Even if it's an auto-hit, he would still have to roll for perils.

[gloomfang]

Jul 17, 2012 16:43:51 GMT nurglitch said:

No, it's more like following the rules. A model with Ballistic Skill '0' cannot shoot.

If you want to play like that then I will just go to ground and snap shot with my BS1.
And as a side note I remember a unit with a BS0 with a template weapon. I must find that now as it is relevent to the debate at hand. Can we at least agree if I can find a BS0 rule refrence to a template weapon (even though Beam is not a template weapon) that you would find this debatable? (I find it debatable, but you are insiuating that I am cheating.)


And if you roll a power you can't use (like Crush( you are stuck with it Davor.

[nurglitch]

Nope, you can only fire Snap Shots if the model can shoot normally. BS0 models can't shoot normally, so no Snap Fire.

[gloomfang]

Jul 17, 2012 17:26:54 GMT nurglitch said:

Nope, you can only fire Snap Shots if the model can shoot normally. BS0 models can't shoot normally, so no Snap Fire.

Not going to argue that because I think it is a silly loophole.

However I am thinking that Template weapons and Beam/Nova are not shooting attacks (Odd but the rules bear me out).

Pg. 50 Defines all shooting attack types (look at Types): Assault, Heavy, Ord, Pistol, Rapid fire or Salvo. The rules state these are ALL of the shooting attacks.
Template and Beam/Nova are therefore not shooting attacks as they are not listed as being a shooting attack.

Now Witchfire on pg.69 says that they are OFTEN REFERRED to as psychic shooting attacks (not that they are) and a unit that uses one counts as having shot a weapon. It counts as firing an Assault weapon UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED.

Beam/Nova are noted to be something other than Assault. Therefore it is a psychic attack that is resolved in the shooting phase, is not a shooting attack (as they are not shooting weapons) and if you use the power it counts as having shot once. As it is not a shooting attack it does not need to have a BS.

[coredump]

There is a decent case to be made that the BLord can't use Assail; It is not, however, definitive.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules to disallow the Blord from using Snap Shot.

Gloom, if you can find that BS0 template model, that would be really cool.

[nurglitch]

Speaking of which, Witchfire has the first typo I've noticed in the book.

"Witchfire powers aer [sic] manifested during the Psycker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. Witchfire powers are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks. Manifesting witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon (unless otherwise noted)."

"Beam is a sub-type of Witchfire." Nothing in the sub-section on beams notes that they do not count as firing an Assault weapon.

"A Nova is treated like a shooting attack, and indeed will have a profile like a shooting attack." Nothing in the sub-section on novas notes that they do not count as firing an Assault weapon.

Psychic attacks resolved in the Shooting phase are witchfire powers. Shockwave, for example, is a nova power with a shooting weapon profile. Assail is a beam power with a shooting weapon profile. Both are noted as being Assault.

[greatescape13]

Jul 17, 2012 16:43:51 GMT nurglitch said:

No, it's more like following the rules. A model with Ballistic Skill '0' cannot shoot.

No, a model with BS 0 cannot make Ballistic Skill tests. Which is used for shooting, yes. But then the complexity that Gloomfang and others are talking about sets in--does "automatically hit" mean that a BS test was taken and the results are pre-determined? Or does it mean that no BS test is taken? If the latter, then BS 0 doesn't matter for auto-hit.

It's a grey area, which is why both sides of the debate right now feel that they are right.

Depends on which day it is, I get swayed in either direction. Which means this one should definitely be included in the first FAQ.

That said, I've found my broodlord really enjoys TK (thanks to Gloomfang and others who suggested that in my psychic round-up thread). Objuration Mechanicum is worth the risks of an unusable power, even if an opponent and I have to decide whether he can use Assail or not on a 4+ roll (again, the only fair way to handle grey areas of the rules IMO).

Cheers.