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Post by Xantige on Jul 18, 2012 1:19:39 GMT
You know what? I think our no-allies thing makes us way more hardcore than all those other pansies who need friends to win a fight. if I want to play 40k on hardcore mode I'd rather have a choice in the matter, not be stuck with it. That, or I'd at least like to see the allies list make more bleeding sense! I don't have my book on me, but it seemed like almost everyone could ally with about 3/4 of the other armies. What ever happened to everyone hating everyone and killing everyone? What Xan said. It's not so much to do with the whole 'need' thing, but rather the way it just stops us from (legitimately) running fun thematic lists. Why? IG can ally, just class them as Stealer cultists and call it a day. Even if it was just them I wouldn't mind. If you play any other armies, think how allies makes you feel then. Personally, I'm loving the now silly options available to Dark Eldar. I could even run an allied lot of Kroot in with them fitting the mercenary theme, or throw down Yriel or a Phoenix Lord for a laugh. It's not all about whether or not it's necessary or if it'd break the army (though I seriously doubt GK or Necrons really needed allies on a power level basis), but also about the fun of having more choice and options. If you're a Nid player, like with our old FAQ, you just got told 'NO' without a because. You put it in better words than I did. As someone with Orks, I do find the idea of GK and Orks gleefully silly and slightly evil, as a Nid player, I feel like I'm stuck in 5th ed. I agree with Phychichobo. I love the idea of allies because of how fun or right out silly an army can become with this. But again we are being denied all the funnies because we play as aliens (although Necrons are aliens who wants to destroy all life is really unlikely to get any living allies in my book). I don't see why all these rulings have to be so strict against the Nids. Why wouldn't the collected intelligence of the Hive Mind be able to figure out how to use a simple defence gun but a Necron, who has been sleeping for eons, can. It all just seems to suck a little of the fun out of the game when you're being so discriminating against a specific army (Nids) That's my two cents atleast. To be fair, most of our units don't have hands to work guns, and I can sort of understand that Tyranids might think differently in a way that makes using mechanical guns hard. That said, there's no reason we couldn't have our own alien terrain with alien guns that only we could use. |
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Post by bloodborne on Jul 18, 2012 2:09:14 GMT
but see... alien guns would make it so the abundance of space marine players can't use OUR guns(which is the real problem here).
I think what a lot of people are forgetting on this thread is that GW is human-centric, and care very little about any of the xenos races....
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Post by thereader on Jul 18, 2012 2:32:22 GMT
Why not take an aegis line with a quad-gun? Stick a biovore or Venomthrope gunner for the BS4. Costs a little bit more, but you get a better BS and a gun that has both skyfire and intercepter. Possibly because our FAQ says that Nids can never operate Emplaced Weapons. It remains to be seen if Emplaced Weapons and Weapon Emplacements are considered the same for those purposes, but it's entirely possible that we won't be able to use those. Really, the reason I want Allies for my Nids is to be able to run Stealer Cult properly. Some more Anti-Aircraft options would be nice, but after having run a bunch of math on it, I'm no longer as scared of massed Flyers as I was. DakkaFexen do a lot better against them than I thought. I concur. DakkaFex are awesome at bringing down aircraft. Now I just need a way to get them to live through shooting down more than 1 aircraft. |
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Post by infornography on Jul 18, 2012 2:55:29 GMT
Maybe I am missing something here, but Dakkafex only shoot 12 twin linked non skyfire St 6 shots. To take down a Storm Raven they would need to fire over 100 non twin linked shots and twin linking doesn't quite drop that number by half.
You would need 2 Dakkafex to fire everything at one storm raven to stand a solid chance of getting a single glance. If I'm missing something, please tell me what it is because that does not look like a very efficient use of points to me.
The only thing I'd really want an ally for is to provide a gun line with a range of more than 18" and an anti-aircraft flyer. I really feel our only weakness is anti air but that is one hell of a weakness in the current meta.
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Post by WestRider on Jul 18, 2012 4:00:45 GMT
Storm Ravens suck to deal with. No question there. Against anything else*, tho, the situation is much better. It takes 2-3 DakkaFexen on average to down a Scythe, and 2 have pretty good odds of dropping an AV10, 3HP Flyer like a Rear Arc Vendetta. Storm Talons go down to DakkaFexen really fast.
And Storm Ravens are really expensive. If my Opponent wants to take two of them, I'll happily play 2K against 15-1600 Points and mostly ignore them except for paying attention to where I need to place my screens. If they just take one, that brings it back into the realm of reasonable to deal with , especially with a couple of Broods of Hive Guard** around.
*Yes, even Vendettas. It's very hard to keep from exposing their Rear Armour without otherwise nerfing your own Vendetta.
**They're still an excellent Unit, and I've got 6 of them painted up pretty nicely. They're going to be hitting the Table for a while.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 18, 2012 5:00:37 GMT
if I want to play 40k on hardcore mode I'd rather have a choice in the matter, not be stuck with it. That, or I'd at least like to see the allies list make more bleeding sense! I don't have my book on me, but it seemed like almost everyone could ally with about 3/4 of the other armies. What ever happened to everyone hating everyone and killing everyone? No worries, everyone still hates everyone. Remember, these armies are only joining up to *kill* other people they hate even more. When I said having no allies makes us hardcore, I was talking about the flavor, not the game balance. There is no reasonable scenario where Nids actively collaborate with another race. Nids consume, perhaps subvert, but never collaborate. And for the last time, Genestealer cult rules are rumored in an upcoming White Dwarf. So everyone can just settle down about that one. Yes, the other armies have more ally options, but they really aren't all as extensive as you think. GKs aren't Battle Brothers with anyone, DE only get along with eldar, and daemons only like CSM and IG. In fact, all the 'bad' armies are pretty hampered in options. Cooperation has ever been the bailiwick of good guys. GKs... alright, I'm no GW apologist. I suppose the theory is that they ally anyone in order to defeat chaos, which *kind of* makes sense, even if we don't like it. Nobody will argue having no allies means 'nids are in a better spot, as far as list choices go. But where on earth would our flavor be if we *could* do that? Who would ally with the nids, and how daft would it be once every nid tourney list started including a squad of terminators or immortals or fire warriors or a warlock or whatever else, due to metagame pressure? No. I would rather not have allies. If you're playing casual, do can always play what you like, but I'm glad they didn't compromise our fluff in the core book. |
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Post by fleetofclaw on Jul 18, 2012 7:01:48 GMT
Look, I could not care less about not having allies or shooting emplaced weapons.....
..... if GW can give me 1 solid shred of evidence of some other benefit they have given us in exchange. One freaking sentence to at least tell my *why* the choice was made - I don't even have to agree with it - and I'll shut up and go on my merry way.
I'm not upset because I can't ally, because honestly I don't want to ally my army. I can hardly take everything I want from my own codex at 2000pt let alone dilute it with something else. I just want to know how I was compensated for not being able to ally other than a giant middle finger to me for playing the faction I play.
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Post by explosivekorn on Jul 18, 2012 7:23:21 GMT
Why would you want to take allies? In games of 2,000 points or above you can take two primary detachments that means 4 HQs, 12 Troops, 6 elites, etc.. that to me sounds much better than allies.
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Post by Lanesend on Jul 18, 2012 7:59:27 GMT
I at first was also in the camp that allies would nerf us, but it's not so bad as I thought. Allies will allow a hole in a codex to be filled with units from another codex. But the player doing that is also restricting himself, because he actually has to spent points on HQ + T before he can buy the good stuff from E, F, HS. This balances it out pretty good.
And nidded up Gun emplacements can auto-fire if I'm not mistaken (don't have the book with me now) at BS 2.
Hey. That's the same as ripper tentacles on a spore. So it would be logical that a digestion pit or spore chimney with built in guns (guad-beetle-throwers) would fire at that same BS, right?
Just get in a few more games and then we'll see how many people actually use allies and fortifications and if they're used to add more flavor to the game or to make their lists overpowered.
IMO a lot of the rules for 6th edition were made to make the game less competative and more fun. We all just have to adept to that mindset.
And as Coredump said in another thread: Tournies will as always use their own house-rules to keep the competition level as they see fit.
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Post by Xantige on Jul 18, 2012 8:46:42 GMT
if I want to play 40k on hardcore mode I'd rather have a choice in the matter, not be stuck with it. That, or I'd at least like to see the allies list make more bleeding sense! I don't have my book on me, but it seemed like almost everyone could ally with about 3/4 of the other armies. What ever happened to everyone hating everyone and killing everyone? No worries, everyone still hates everyone. Remember, these armies are only joining up to *kill* other people they hate even more. When I said having no allies makes us hardcore, I was talking about the flavor, not the game balance. There is no reasonable scenario where Nids actively collaborate with another race. Nids consume, perhaps subvert, but never collaborate. And for the last time, Genestealer cult rules are rumored in an upcoming White Dwarf. So everyone can just settle down about that one. Yes, the other armies have more ally options, but they really aren't all as extensive as you think. GKs aren't Battle Brothers with anyone, DE only get along with eldar, and daemons only like CSM and IG. In fact, all the 'bad' armies are pretty hampered in options. Cooperation has ever been the bailiwick of good guys. GKs... alright, I'm no GW apologist. I suppose the theory is that they ally anyone in order to defeat chaos, which *kind of* makes sense, even if we don't like it. Nobody will argue having no allies means 'nids are in a better spot, as far as list choices go. But where on earth would our flavor be if we *could* do that? Who would ally with the nids, and how daft would it be once every nid tourney list started including a squad of terminators or immortals or fire warriors or a warlock or whatever else, due to metagame pressure? No. I would rather not have allies. If you're playing casual, do can always play what you like, but I'm glad they didn't compromise our fluff in the core book. Well, I'm going to make myself look like a total idiot now, but I haven't gotten to reading the ally rules. So the details and conditions of the allying are still foggy to me, and I admit that after reading them, I may change my mind. But if you want to argue fluff, chew on this: All the armies, excluding us, Daemons and CSM, can ally with all other armies, with only 1-4 being off limits. In the future there is only war? That seems unlikely if everyone is so willing to ally. You want to talk about fluff? Well now the xenos hating Space Marines are pretty much willing to work with anyone to kill Chaos and Tyranids. Even the Deldar and Eldar are buddies. For me, it's not that this nerfs us, it's that GW was extremely generous with allies to everyone but us, so arguing that it's fluffy that we're forever alone simply makes no sense when you're defending Grey Knights and Orks working together. Yes, Tyranids want to eat everyone, but the (recent) fluff has painted us as an intelligent alien race. We're not stupid beasts, if we could make two armies fight and kill eachother, we're better off. Biomass is biomass, dead or alive. You could argue that we'd take the side of the stronger force, leave them alone, and kill the weaker enemy before jumping on the other enemy. Maybe remote controled Tyranids is a far fetched idea, but frankly, how is it any different from the idea of the death-before-dishonour space marines working with ALL the xenos races under the right conditions? And if everyone is willing to ally with everyone else... who is your enemy? Other than Chaos and Tyranids? Again, the only thing about this ally system that bugs me, is that we can't ally with anyone. The only reason I'm clawing holes in the fluff of it, is because fluff doesn't really apply to this chart, except for Tyranids. If this chart was fluffy, all human armies wouldn't allie with any xenos or chaos army, save a few rare instances, like the Tau, perhaps. The xenos armies would be chaotic in their allies, and I think most of them would only have 1-3 allies, because 40% of the armies are marines. I see the Tau allying with almost everyone, because that's their thing, but otherwise, it'd be a very limited mechanic. Only... it isn't. It seems to be something intended to sell models.... I don't know, it just seems like the list was 90% done by someone in marketing, and then a fanboy got his grubby hands on it and filled in the Tyranid column, and no one checked it before it went to print. Also, to all those that believe that GW is trying to kill off/nerf all non space marine armies... if they were, than only imperium armies would be able to have any sort of allies  And nidded up Gun emplacements can auto-fire if I'm not mistaken (don't have the book with me now) at BS 2. Hey. That's the same as ripper tentacles on a spore. So it would be logical that a digestion pit or spore chimney with built in guns (guad-beetle-throwers) would fire at that same BS, right? IMO a lot of the rules for 6th edition were made to make the game less competative and more fun. We all just have to adept to that mindset. That's soething I hadn't considered before (or read yet). If the guns auto fire (and not at us nids, because then it'd be silly to take them) than I'd be okay with that. It'd give me a reason to mdel something up, but I might still ask if my opponent would be okay if moving through that fortification required a Dangerous Terrain test to represent the alien foliage lashing out. I'm not sure how I feel about 40k becoming more casual... with GW, "Casual" sometimes mean "pretend there's no power balances and make an unoptimized list," as opposed to "We made a well balanced, well oiled game intended for the casual home setting, not the intense tournament circuit," but I guess that's the cynical mindset many 40k players grow over time speaking... Even if 40k becomes more casual, the majority of gamers still play hard, and play to win. The game has a huge following of people that love exploiting the rules and making optimized lists, and just changing 40k to be more casual won't change those players. Anyways, that's enough late night ranting for me. |
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Post by Lanesend on Jul 18, 2012 10:31:59 GMT
@xan, that's the point. 6th edition has more randomness then 5th edition. This makes it harder for competative play and easier to 'gamble' on army lists and tactics.
(for example psychic powers. A lot of nice buffs to be gained, but not sure what you get)
And please, casual does not mean: "Lets get drunk and play the game to loose, 'cause it doesn't matter anyway." The difference between competative and friendly is a lot smaller then most people will admit. (mostly because they view their own playstyle as the only right way to play)
I play friendly, but I always play to win...
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Post by greatescape13 on Jul 18, 2012 10:46:55 GMT
And for the last time, Genestealer cult rules are rumored in an upcoming White Dwarf. So everyone can just settle down about that one. I hate to be that guy... but source? I pay close attention to GW rumors over the summer (that whole teaching in the fall and spring thing cuts my rumor-mill time), and haven't seen this one anywhere. I'd love it if it were the case, and will cross my fingers you're right. But it just seems unlikely. Cheers. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Jul 18, 2012 11:02:46 GMT
I loathe the idea of Tyranids brofisting with the food. Let us be Death.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 18, 2012 13:35:15 GMT
Xan- You’re right, of course. They were awfully forgiving with other lists and allies, but I see that as a failing in those lists, not in the ‘Nid options. The fluff of ‘desparate allies’ pretty much says the after-battle consequences for the forces are exile or execution for treason. That doesn’t completely excuse the repeated occurrence of GKs in a tabletop Ork army, but it does make me feel better about it. And again – what story do you tell when adding that Space Marine captain and terminator squad to your tervigon list? How do the Tau greater good the Parasite of Mortrex into their army? Allies imply some sort of ground-level coordination, which the Hive Mind just doesn’t go for. Biomass is biomass, and if the tyranids lose more gaunts in an attack by being tactically inefficient (no allies) – what does it matter? The next wave will consume them along with the prey species. I hate to be that guy... but source? I pay close attention to GW rumors over the summer (that whole teaching in the fall and spring thing cuts my rumor-mill time), and haven't seen this one anywhere. It actually came up in the 6e spoilers thread – compliments of N.I.B. and guns. The source is admittedly hand-wavey, but at least it’s something. ~12 minute mark: www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/06/27/signals-from-the-frontline-wargamescon-recap-6th-ed-teasers/I loathe the idea of Tyranids brofisting with the food. Let us be Death. Damn straight. Tyranids are the Great Devourer, the unknowable, unstoppable horror from beyond known space. Fluff implies 'nids have overrun entire galaxies before moving against ours. Chaos may threaten to destroy the Imperium of Man, but Tyranids threaten to consume *everyone*. |
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Post by ragnarok on Jul 18, 2012 20:41:19 GMT
If the swarm could ally with any food-things then I would of liked an alliance with guard.
I play fluffy so a guard nid alliance would contain lots of stealers (possible a prime as a patriarch count as). Then conscript squads as cultists and a few guard squads as cultists in high places. And nothing else
Personally I would have liked the ally table to be asymmetric, Just because one army can have a small contingence of another doesn’t mean it would happen the other way around.
For example a Grey knight strike force might appear assault the same target as an Ork horde is, but you want find a couple of dozen Ork boyz deciding to smash the same target as the shinny beakie boys.
However I won’t care about the ally matrix if GW release a book with the following:
Unique armies, such as stealer cults, that give very restricted ally allowance
Race specific terrain with their own rules.
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