Shadow in the Warp, 6th ed problem

[fragile]

""No, Perils of the Warp is an independent effect of taking a Psychic test"" No, the perils is a result of taking the test and rolling the doubles. It is not a separate issue.

"The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test."

The banner auto passes that test therefore you need go no further. Just like Fearless mobs auto passing a Morale test.

"""whether the test was passed or not"" ... is a part of a sentence taken out of context for your argument.

Just like all other auto successes Psychic tests dont require a roll, unless it says it does.

[nurglitch]

Can you cite the rule in the rulebook stating that automatic success don't require a roll? I'm having difficulty finding it...

[kippawah]

If a psychic shooting attack auto-hits (like Paroxysm), you still have to roll a psychic test.

IMO, there isn't anything out there that allows you to cheat your way out of at least rolling the psychic test.

Seems the most reasonable course of action.

[coredump]

Jul 17, 2012 19:09:41 GMT nurglitch said:

I agree, the rules clearly state that players attempting to manifest their psyker's powers must take a psychic test.

No they do not. The *summary* makes that shorthand statement. The 'actual rules' say a test needs to be passed, it does not require dice be rolled.
I have pointed this out before, but you keep insisting to post the Summary information instead of the actual rules....

3. Nothing allows a player to avoid taking this psychic test. If the psychic test is passed, then the player goes onto step

Doesn't work that way, the model says it must be passed, there is no rule requiring a test.

4. Passing the psychic test is irrelevant to Perils of the Warp, since it can happen whether the test was passed or not.

Of course, but it says "if the dice..." Since no role is required... then no doubles occur.

Just as Gets Hot-type weapon bundles its test into the hit dice, you still have to roll a D6 to see if a blast or template weapon gets hot.

If it is the same, why did they specifically call for the extra die roll with Gets Hot, but not with Perils, or gargs, or anything else that you now claim require it.
Gets Hot says 'if you don't roll to hit, still roll another die'; there is no such passage for Perils.

[coredump]

Jul 17, 2012 19:36:28 GMT nurglitch said:

Can you cite the rule in the rulebook stating that automatic success don't require a roll? I'm having difficulty finding it...

You are asking to prove a negative.
"Can you cite the rule in the rulebook stating that Hormagants can't fly"?

You need to show the passage stating that you need to roll dice, even if the test is passed.

This is pretty straightforward... the rules require that a Psy test be *passed*. That is the conditional requirement.... if that is met nothing more needs be done regarding the psy test.

Yes perils *can* happen pass or fail; that doens't mean that they can happen in every possible case of passing or failing. the rules never state that there is *always* a chance for perils.

[coredump]

Jul 17, 2012 19:41:50 GMT kippawah said:

If a psychic shooting attack auto-hits (like Paroxysm), you still have to roll a psychic test.

IMO, there isn't anything out there that allows you to cheat your way out of at least rolling the psychic test.
.

Yeah, way to have a rules discussion, accuse the other side of 'cheating'.

Beyond that, you didn't even get the issue correct. *Of course* you have to roll Psy test for Parox. The issue is if you have to roll "to hit" for Parox.

[fragile]

The issue Kippawah, is when you cast that paroxsym. Do you roll a ballistic skill test with your Tyrant and then say "ooh look, I missed, but we ignore that because its an auto hit"?


"Can you cite the rule in the rulebook stating that automatic success don't require a roll? I'm having difficulty finding it...""

ah.. seriously ?? I guess you never use Paroxsym, Leech essence, Onslaught or any of those other "auto-hit" skills? What skill did you roll against ? Ballistic ? How about Beam powers.. Do you still roll a die for those models struck by the beam even though they are automatically hit ? How about template weapons? Do you still roll to hit those under the template ?

One could list lots of automatic successes in the rules that dont require rolling a die.

[Psychichobo]

I've heard this before actually, it came up when the GK dex came out. Don't think there was a definitive answer there actually.

The best comparison would be an ability triggered by a particular result on a dice roll (such as rending) that exists alongside an ability that allows for an automatic pass of that roll (such as blinding venom). Unfortunately, I can't think of any right now...


However, I must warn people that this particular debate does carry a strong air of rules-lawyering and unfairness to it. I'd really advise against arguing for it in casual games unless your opponent is using some form of rules exploitation against you.

[rehkal]

Fragile, might want to reread everything posted carefully. This is NOT about rolling 'to hit'. It's about rolling a psychic test to see if the power even goes off. The discussion is about something that happens before you roll to hit anything.

[coredump]

But the issue applies either way. If you auto-pass a psy test, or auto-hit an attack, or auto wound.... does that require a roll anyway?

[greatescape13]

Jul 17, 2012 21:12:42 GMT coredump said:

"Can you cite the rule in the rulebook stating that Hormagants can't fly"

Pffft. Reading the forum, drinking a lemonade on a hot summer evening, thinking life is good.

Then I read that quote and snort at the pure elegance of the point, and boom: lemonade burning my sinuses.

[infornography]

The point is there IS a general rule saying you have to roll the psyker test. There is no explicit rule saying that you don't have to roll a check if you auto pass it. If there is a rule already in place you have to have an explicit exception to not have to apply that rule. That explicit exception does not exist.

That said, there have been some strong arguments to make me think that RAI might be that you don't need to. But noone has stated what rule provides the explicit exception to the rule that you have to roll.

[zephoid]

There is not a rule saying you have to roll for a psychic test. There is a rule saying you have to pass a psychic test.

[coredump]

Info, your logic is sound, but your premise is false.

As Zephoid points out,the rules call for passing a psy test, not taking one. Normally you have to take one to pass it, but in some cases you pass it automatically, and thus never have to take it.

Don't get fooled by summaries... read the actual sections dealing with Psy tests.

[1b2a]

Jul 17, 2012 19:09:41 GMT nurglitch said:

Passing the psychic test is irrelevant to Perils of the Warp, since it can happen whether the test was passed or not.

This does it for me. I'm with nurglitch. It's pointless to point at other similar abilities becasue the wording, that is, the logic of the discription can be different. In this specific case it explicitly says that whether the test is passed or not, perils should be checked for.

especially since you can passa test and get perils.