Shadow in the Warp, 6th ed problem

[coredump]

Jul 17, 2012 0:21:49 GMT nurglitch said:

Take Psychic Test, p.67, Rulebook:

"3...The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1 or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately."

You are quoting the summary in the beginning. Summaries do not give complete rules. For the complete rule you need to go to the actual rules for Psychic Test and you will find:

"The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon.

If the test is passed,the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

With the brotherhood banner, he passes the test. He has therefore fulfilled that condition. The condition is to pass the test, there is no rule stating that you have to roll the dice.

Similarly, raveners ignore difficult terrain, that does not mean they have to roll the dice anyway....

Gargs autohit with HoW, that does not mean you roll the dice anyway; blinding venom does not apply.

Gets Hot triggers off of the 'to hit' roll. There is no 'to hit' roll when using Blast Weapons, so Gets Hot would not affect shooting a Plasma Cannon.
Which is why they needed to (and did) add a specific rule to roll an extra die when Blast Weapons have Gets Hot.
There is no such rule for Psy Tests. (Or Blinding Venom)

Psychic Test: Perils of the Warp, p.67, Rulebook:

"If the roll for the Psychic test is either double 1 or double 6 (whether the test was passed or not) this indicates that something horrible has happened to the Psyker."

Correct. Since there is no roll made... there is no double 1 or double 6 to worry about.

Equipment: Brotherhood Banner, p.62, Codex: Grey Knights:

"Additionally, the unit will automatically pass its Psychic test to 'activate' its force weapons."

So the Grey Knight player takes a psychic test to activate the Grey Knight unit's Nemesis Force Weapons. The Brotherhood Banner means that whatever she rolls, the test to activate will be passed, since it is passed automatically. Finally, regardless of whether the test is passed, the unit may suffer Perils of the Warp.

If you automatically pass, you meet the condition for progressing. The rule does not make you roll dice....

[nurglitch]

A psychic test involves rolling to manifest a psychic power and to check for Perils of the Warp. Automatically manifesting a psychic power does not exempt a unit from checking for Perils of the Warp. As the rule for Perils of the Warp says:

"whether the test was passed or not"

You automatically passed the test to manifest a psychic power? Cool, now roll for Perils of the Warp, because regardless of whether the psychic test to manifest a power was passed or not, a roll of double 1 or 6 causes 1 wound with no saves of any kind.

[coredump]

Please show the rule that says you must roll for perils when you don't have to roll for a test. The Perils rules are pretty specific "IF the roll..."

Gets Hot *does* have a rule like that... without that rule Blast Weapons would never 'Get Hot'.


Do you apply the same logic to the rest of the game?
Do you roll HoW dice eventhough you automatically hit?
Do you roll DoG attacks, eventhough you automatically hit?
etc.

[nurglitch]

"whether the test was passed or not"

[zephoid]

Anything auto passed does not require a roll.
There was a thread a while back that came to the conclusion OOE does not get more attacks on a stationary vehicle because you automatically hit. OOE states you must succeed in a roll. Therefore, it could not generate more hits. Otherwise you would generate infinite hits on a stationary vehicle which would be silly.

The phrase "whether the test was passed or not" referrers to the result of the roll, not the necessity to take the roll . It is there to clarify the double 1 result, not indicate the test must be taken.

[nurglitch]

Berserk Rampage is self-limiting: Old One Eye's additional attacks do not generate more additional attacks. That said, if Old One Eye attacks a WS0 vehicle, it's getting between 14 and 18 hits, depending on Crushing Claws and Instinctive Behaviour.

Basically it's like this: A player taking a psychic test is rolling to (1) manifest a psychic power or activate a force weapon, and (2) test for Perils of the Warp. Automatically activating a force weapon does not obviate the requirement to test for Perils of the Warp.

It's like rolling two hits with one dice, automatically hitting with one does not mean you do not roll for the other. As the rules for Perils of the Warp says, the test for Perils is made whether the test to activate is passed or not.

Let me reiterate: The player activating their Nemesis Force Weapons via the Brotherhood Banner has to test for the Perils of the Warp, whether the test to activate was passed or not.

The fact that the Perils of the Warp and the activation of force weapons and manifestations of psychic powers are independent attests to the necessity of testing for Perils of the Warp.

[zephoid]

perils is a side effect of rolling, not a condition you are rolling for. If you dont perform the manifest roll, you cannot perils. If you auto pass, you dont roll. You arent rolling FOR perils EVER.

Hammer of wrath was a good example with blinding venom. You auto hit, therefore the venom never activates.

[nurglitch]

No, Perils of the Warp is an independent effect of taking a Psychic test. Nothing in the Brotherhood Banner rules exempts the unit from taking a Psychic test. It merely allows the unit to automatically activate its force weapon, not to avoid the Psychic test or Perils of the Warp.

The combination of Blinding Venom and Hammer of Wrath requires you to roll 1D6 for each Hammer of Wrath attack, and causing an automatic wound on each result of 6.

Automatically obtaining one result does not obviate the requirement to test for other results depending on the same roll.

[nurglitch]

Incidentally, since the rules categorically states: "whether the test was passed or not" and the Brotherhood Banner allows a unit to "automatically pass its Psychic test" the Psychic test must still be rolled because it is irrelevant to Perils of the Warp whether the Psychic test was passed or not.

[roxor08]

Has anyone here contacted GW about this debate? I'd be willing to bet they would side against you nurglitch...not saying I disagree with you, I just have a feeling they'll side AGAINST rolling any dice.

I think it'd be fair to do a roll off with your opponent if you are in this same discussion at the gaming table.

[nurglitch]

robox08:

I don't see any utility in asking GW, at least insofar as receiving some authoritative opinion. I also don't see them siding against rolling dice.

It's obviously something to bring up before playing a game against a Grey Knight opponent. I mean, it seems clear to me, but nothing is clear to everyone.

Take the possible results of a psychic test:

Pass test and no Perils of the Warp
Fail test and no Perils of the Warp
Pass test and Perils of the Warp
Fail test and Perils of the Warp

You're not just rolling to manifest a psychic power, you're also rolling to test for Perils of the Warp. Perils of the Warp may occur whether the Psychic Test was passed or not. Hence you should roll for Perils of the Warp even when the Brotherhood Banner enables the unit to automatically pass the psychic test to activate their force weapons.

[Soluncreed]

Jul 16, 2012 20:05:30 GMT nurglitch said:

No, they just have an increased chance of taking 1 wound, whether they pass the test or not.

Ah well. Didn't actually think it was my way, but it would have been a nice and pleasant suprise if it was.

[coredump]

The rules clearly state that you need to pass a test. The basic rules for taking the test is to roll some dice.
The rules never say you have to roll for perils. They say *IF* the psy test turns out a certain way, perils happen. The rules never call out for you to roll dice if you have already passed the test.

Again, I contrast with Gets Hot, where a similar mechanic is involved, and they specifically call for an extra roll... there is no such call in this case.

I also, again, bring up all the other examples where things happen 'automatically' and no roll is made...

[nurglitch]

I agree, the rules clearly state that players attempting to manifest their psyker's powers must take a psychic test. It's step 3. Nothing allows a player to avoid taking this psychic test. If the psychic test is passed, then the player goes onto step 4. Passing the psychic test is irrelevant to Perils of the Warp, since it can happen whether the test was passed or not.

Nothing allows a player to stick the psychic test. The Brotherhood Banner merely allows the test to be automatically passed. But the test can be passed and the unit still suffer Perils of the Warp.

Likewise a Gargoyle's Hammer of Wrath attack might hit automatically, but you still have to roll to see if its Blinding Venom effect obtains. Just as Gets Hot-type weapon bundles its test into the hit dice, you still have to roll a D6 to see if a blast or template weapon gets hot.

[bloodborne]

If memory serves, there was something awhile back that stated that specialized codex rules were able to supersede Core rules in cases such as this. In this context, both RAW and RAI would indicate that yes, in fact Grey Knights are able to negate perils in this way. Sucks, but there you go, it is not as if they don't already have a lot of serious advantages over every other army already...