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Post by Tempests Wrath on Jul 3, 2012 0:45:58 GMT
You know, I thought Tempests Wrath was on crack *snip* EDIT: Gave credit where credit was due I am always willing to accept that I am going crazy >.> And as for Davor, i think it mentions normal witchfire being treated as a shooting attack. So id say following the shooting rules, you would roll to hit the same time you would for a shooting attack (before rolling to wound after picking target/weapon, and in this case after confirming you can use the weapon on the target). But i dont have the book to be sure.. Edit:: If you roll a power that you cant use, simply ask your opponent if you can re-roll, be the gentleman instead of exploiting the rules. if they say no, so be it, you should have picked biomancy instead of telekenesis. Doesnt Biomany have more powers that Broodlords cant use than Telekenesis does? assuming (as is my assumption currently) of course we can actually use 'focused witchfire' with BS 0. |
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Post by korzon on Jul 3, 2012 0:47:42 GMT
Killme304 - the rule book states in the first paragraph for Witchfire powers that manifesting these power counts as firing an assault weapon (pg 69, third and fourth lines). This should really clear everything up. But to reinforce this, the paragraph about focussed Witchfire powers requires you to resolve the attack with all the normal rules in addition to the specific effect, including using the roll for the psychic test.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 3, 2012 0:50:32 GMT
-stuff- So when do we "Roll to Hit"? You would roll To Hit during as part of the resolution of a Witchfire attack. The difference I see is that these Focused Witchfire attacks seem to automatically effect the target you selected before taking your psychic test. I could be wrong now. (But I don't think so *breaks into song*) EDIT: Killme304 - the rule book states in the first paragraph for Witchfire powers that manifesting these power counts as firing an assault weapon (pg 69, third and fourth lines). This should really clear everything up. But to reinforce this, the paragraph about focussed Witchfire powers requires you to resolve the attack with all the normal rules in addition to the specific effect, including using the roll for the psychic test. Bleh, after reading the other Witchfire powers, it does seem like you have to roll to hit on Focused Witchfire. All the other powers say "automatically targets and hits." So yeah, Broodlord is out (BS0 is auto-miss). |
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Post by Davor on Jul 3, 2012 0:53:42 GMT
I know it's common sense, I am not exploiting anything, I am not disagreeing with anyone here. I am playing devils advocate here, but also from experiance and reading on the net, we are dealing with SM players after all. They are the ones who ask for PROOF. After all we on TTH have proven how SL effects units embarked in vehicles but stil the answer was "it's common sense NO". These are the people who say it's "common sense" and "this is how it was played in 4th". So we have to prove it with facts not just "I say so, this is how it was done before. What if a person never played 40K before, and all they have is the 6th edition to go by and no other experiance? So we would have to prove it to this person with facts and page numbers. So then in a calm manner in friendly debate, when is this "to hit rol" rolled? This is a friendly debate, lets prove it with proof and facts.  |
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Post by killme304 on Jul 3, 2012 0:58:30 GMT
I know it's common sense, I am not exploiting anything, I am not disagreeing with anyone here. I am playing devils advocate here, but also from experiance and reading on the net, we are dealing with SM players after all. They are the ones who ask for PROOF. After all we on TTH have proven how SL effects units embarked in vehicles but stil the answer was "it's common sense NO". These are the people who say it's "common sense" and "this is how it was played in 4th". So we have to prove it with facts not just "I say so, this is how it was done before. What if a person never played 40K before, and all they have is the 6th edition to go by and no other experiance? So we would have to prove it to this person with facts and page numbers. So then in a calm manner in friendly debate, when is this "to hit rol" rolled? This is a friendly debate, lets prove it with proof and facts. I don't play SM at all, I play bugs and soon I'll play crons. I ALWAYS ask for proof of a rule I have heard nothing about. See my (now edited) post and then refer to the base Witchfire rules: "A witchfire must roll to hit...." |
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Post by Tempests Wrath on Jul 3, 2012 1:02:39 GMT
*snip* Read the last paragraph: if the power does not have a subtype or it just describes itself as a shooting power, use "the rules given above" - the rules explaining the basic Witchfire rules, to resolve the power. So, it means that the psyker needs to hit the target. I was just reading through this post again.. I wish i had a bloody book. What does the last paragraph say exactly? given that beams, focused witchfires, and... i think there was one other? an aoe auto hit thing? are subtypes.. |
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Post by Davor on Jul 3, 2012 1:17:57 GMT
Killme makes a good point and so far is the best answer. Ok here is another question. Just reading the BGB, where does it say a BS of 0 can't shoot? So if we go by the rules, 7-0 you really can't do, but by going by the rules, a 1 is an automatic miss and a 6 is an automatic hit (please correct me if I am wrong please) no matter what modifiers say, a BL would hit on a 6 then. Still not the best option, but just saying. Also the way I would play it, is if he rolled it, I would say since he can't use it, just like if he couldn't use a warp charge of 2 or more, you re-roll. |
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Post by liquid405 on Jul 3, 2012 1:23:08 GMT
Where does it say WHEN we roll to hit? Page 69, Focused Witchfire section, 2nd sentence. Page 69, Witchfire section, 3rd and 4th sentence. There is no argument here. Unless otherwise noted, it is an Assault weapon. |
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Post by Davor on Jul 3, 2012 1:29:03 GMT
Getting hot, and tired now. Will not be debating anymore, so spent right now. Just can't play Devils Advocate no more right now. |
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Post by liquid405 on Jul 3, 2012 1:33:52 GMT
If you are confused as to when to fire assault weapons, I suggest you check out page 12, the section titled "The Shooting Phase", 3rd and 4th sentence.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 3, 2012 2:48:40 GMT
If you are confused as to when to fire assault weapons, I suggest you check out page 12, the section titled "The Shooting Phase", 3rd and 4th sentence. Bit harsh? But yeah, I somehow missed the 2nd sentence of Focused Witchfire, or else I just read it wrong the last time I looked at it. That clears it up even more. |
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Post by ZergLord on Jul 3, 2012 12:36:17 GMT
Killme makes a good point and so far is the best answer. Ok here is another question. Just reading the BGB, where does it say a BS of 0 can't shoot? Page 3: Models with Zero Characteristics What does the last paragraph say exactly? "There are several different subtypes of witchfire, each applying slightly different targeting restrictions. If the witchfire does not list a subtype or simply describes itself as a shooting power, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the following subtypes, use the rules for that subtype." I think that you still need to Hit with Focused witchfire. Focused witchfire, second sentence: "They follow all the normal rules for witchfire, but you can choose the specific model in the target unit that you want the power to affect." I think it's pretty clear that FW works exactly like an ordinary witchfire, except it just targets a specific model instead of all models in the unit. Witchfire still counts as firing an assault weapon. Second paragraph, last sentence: "Note that, since Witchfire is a shooting attack..." Focused witchfire has different targeting restrictions, but it never stops counting as a shooting attack. So, I don't think that Broodlords can cast any type of Witchfire powers. |
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Post by rehkal on Jul 3, 2012 14:24:02 GMT
If you carefully read this thread the answer to Davors question has already been stated several times. And its been stated by the threads own 'devils advocate' as well.
Look at the steps of casting the powers, the final step is to resolve the power according to instructions in it's entry. At this point you would look at the power being used; if it's a blast you roll scatter, if it's auto-hit it hits, and if it's a shooting attack you roll to hit. This is all part of power resolution, therefore rolling to hit, scatter or auto hit is the last thing you do.
It's strange it's ordered like that, but that's how it is. I can understand why it's like that though. The targeted unit doesn't know if the power will hit them or not, so they will always try their normal defenses against incoming powers... Whether they actually hit or not.
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Post by coredump on Jul 4, 2012 0:12:09 GMT
And rehkal wins the thread.
Since the issue is 'resolving' the power, read the Resolve Psychic Power section. It pretty clearly states *that* is where you would follow the directions of the power, such as rolling to hit for Witchfire powers.
Focused Witchfire is *just* like witchfire, and follows all the same rules. The only addition is you have a chance to effect a specific model.
You guys are getting confused thinking Resolve means it is over. That is not how they are using it.
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Post by Tempests Wrath on Jul 4, 2012 0:30:23 GMT
Look at the steps of casting the powers, the final step is to resolve the power according to instructions in it's entry. At this point you would look at the power being used; if it's a blast you roll scatter, if it's auto-hit it hits, and if it's a shooting attack you roll to hit. This is all part of power resolution, therefore rolling to hit, scatter or auto hit is the last thing you do. It's strange it's ordered like that, but that's how it is. I can understand why it's like that though. The targeted unit doesn't know if the power will hit them or not, so they will always try their normal defenses against incoming powers... Whether they actually hit or not. I am reasonably sure after you bring that point up (and I get a quick chance to look at the book again) you are correct, we need a roll to hit as well under FW. that leaves: 4/7 Biomancy Powers we can use on a BLord. (cant use the primaris) 5/7 Telekinesis Powers (can use the primaris here) 3/7 Telepathy Powers (cant use primaris power) where we can only re roll those with a warp charge of 2. Bio: 0 TK: 1 TP: 2 EDIT: at least... i think those were the power sets nids could pull from.. i wish i woulda double checked that.. |
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