Broodlord, Focused Witchfire

[Tempests Wrath]

Since I cant find someone asking directly and then subsequently getting an actual answer.

How would a Broodlord work with a Focused Witchfire power?

After going over a copy of the rules i can look at, I think it might be able to use them even though they have BS 0.

If someone would like to refute this id appreciate it..

1) Normally a witchfire power is considered a shooting attack, and must roll to hit unless otherwise specified.

2) Witchfire counts as an assault weapon for most intents and purposes.

3) Order of psychic test: Expend Charge, Declare Target, Take the test, deny, resolve power. (this is the important part for my theory)

Now normally, I would assume that the power resolution would be where the shooting attempt and rolling to hit would have to be resolved assuming the power has to do so.

Here is where my theory comes up..

Because based on the wording of a focused psychic power it seems like the target resolution (5 or less or 6+) is done via the psychic test not any kind of shooting afterwards. It just says based on the roll for the psychic power it is either resolved against the target, or some poor guy near your target.

If the resolution of who it hits is already determined via the psychic test, would a separate resolution be required via shooting attack?

What do you guys think?

[gloomfang]

If it doesn't say roll to hit then you can use it with the BLord. If it has a profile like a gun, then you can't use it.

Without the rule book in front of me I would say you are right.

[Davor]

That is what I thought at first as well. All the resolution was then the BL tested to see if it was cast or not. No were do I see that you have to roll afterwards.

I guess what we have to do is, see how the SM plays it. If a SM just tests to use it but doesn't roll again to see if it hits, then it should go for the same as the BL.

Right now, I say he can't use it since he can't "roll to hit". BUT if SM do not "roll to hit", then the BL can use it.

[Jabberwocky]

The psychic test determines the target. When you resolve against that target, you still roll to hit.

The description for witchfires are quite clear you roll to hit unless told it hits automatically such as with beam, nova and maelstrom powers.

[Davor]

Question is, where in the BGB says we have to roll to hit? All I read under the psychic powers, is RESOLVE to see if cast, then apply it. So to me, nobody ever has to roll to hit.

Page numbers would be greatly appreciate.

[Tempests Wrath]

Its under the witchfire area to say witchfire must roll to hit unless: otherwise specified, a blast, a template you are playing against nids (because GW hates nids ), you are an ultrasmurf (not your model, but you yourself), you drank a soda exactly 25 mins and 3 seconds ago.. etc.

I dont have a physical copy myself, i can just study one every now and then. So for page numbers? i got nothing.

The real trick is the 'unless otherwise specified thing' because of the wording of a focused power (to the best of my memory) is saying that 'this' is how you resolve and figure out who you hit. It might mean that you only need to pass the test and use those numbers for resolution.

The reason is that normally the shooting attack and results would be the resolution of the power, so this kind of power specifying the 'you resolve it by..' might classify as an otherwise specified..

Or there is an equal (if not good) chance the resolution is that in addition to: you have to hit the target in shooting before it applies.

Unfortunately... GW does not know how to be clear about such things.

Neither do I (Tangents are super awesome) but I dont write rule books for a living.

[Jabberwocky]

Page 69, paragraph 1, sentence 4.

A witchfire power must roll to hit, unless it is a blast or large blast...etc.

[Davor]

That I know, but where does it say WHEN we shoot?

Page 67, 1 Expend Warp Charge 2 Declare Target 3 Take Psychic test 4 Dent the Witch 5 Resolve Psychic Power.

So the question is under number 5, what does resolved mean? From readoing on page 68 and I summerize "assuming the pscyhic powers test was passed, and the enemy did not nullify the power, you can NOW RESOLVE THE PSYCHIC POWER ACCORDING TO INSTRUCTIONS IN IT'S ENTRY".

Now no where in CAPS I did does it say Roll to hit first anywhere. So power was "charged", target was chosen, test is passed, Deny the Witch failed for the enemy and NOW WE RESOLVE THE POWER.

So as I said, Where in the BGB does it SAY ROLL TO HIT? This doesn't go for just BL but for every unit that can cast this.

[ZergLord]

Page 3: Models with Zero Characterestics. If a model has, in this case, a BS of zero he doesn't have any shooting ability whatsoever. Something to keep in mind. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

Page 69: Witchfire. Witchfire counts as firing an assault weapon unless otherwise noted. The "otherwise noted" part refers to the type of the weapon: some powers, like Vortex of Doom, are Witchfire - Heavy 1.
Read the last paragraph: if the power does not have a subtype or it just describes itself as a shooting power, use "the rules given above" - the rules explaining the basic Witchfire rules, to resolve the power. So, it means that the psyker needs to hit the target.

And since BS0 means you don't have no shooting capabilities whatsoever, I think it's clear that Broodlords can't use Witchfire powers.

EDIT: It might be better to ignore me, since I wasn't paying attention that you were talking specifically about focused witchfire. =| I'll look into this later...

[Tempests Wrath]

I think i get the specific question davor asked. i like it.

for example, smite i think was witchfire. nothing special. it had a shooting profile. so you look to witchfire and learn 'oh hey, this needs to roll to hit cuz its witchfire and not a templast or blast, nor does it say auto hit'

So rolling to hit and the going through the wounds resolves the power.

another example, say puppet master. being a focused witchfire, you would look at the focused witchfire entry (that -is- what it -is) no where there does it say you have to shoot. And as it tells you right there 'this is how its resolved, that is how it is resolved.

So the question.. where does it say a focused witchfire power has to roll a shooting attack?

Each subtype of witchfire is after all an 'otherwise specified' telling how to use that subset of witchfire to resolve.

[korzon]

On page 69 the witch fire rule states that 'a witch fire power MUST roll to hit, unless it is a blast or large blast, in which case it scatters as normal, or is a template weapon , which hits automatically. The entry for Focussed Witchfire states you follow all the regular rules for witchfire and you get to choose the model....This explicit rule leads me to believe that any witch fire attack including focused ones require a to hit rule via his BS.

On page 3, the rule book addresses zero level characteristics. The examples for WS0 state that the model is automatically hit in close combat and cannot strike back, etc. Since the brood lord has a 0 BS I would assume he is unable to shoot. I know this second part is open to discussion and would love to see other people's thoughts on the subject.

[Davor]

Ok, let us forget about the BL for a moment. Where does it say WHEN we roll to hit? All I see is this.

Expend Warp Power. Pick Target. Roll to see if Power goes off. Roll to see if power goes off is a success. Roll for Deny the Witch. Roll for DtW is unseccessfull, Resolve the Power. WHERE DOES IT SAY WE NEED TO ROLL TO HIT?

Yes I know we need to roll to hit because Witchfire say so, but in what phase do you do it? Again all I read is after DtW is unseccessfull, resolve the power as it says in it's entry. NO WHERE does it say you need to roll to hit before this.

So when do we "Roll to Hit"?

[korzon]

Because Deny the witch is similar to saves, my group does the roll to hit before deny the witch. Then if the power is not negated we finish resolving its effects. I could also see people rolling to hit after deny the witch but at the beginning of resolving the power as the hit is required for the rest of the power to take effect.

[killme304]

You know, I thought Tempests Wrath was on crack, but after pouring over every possible rule I could think of that would effect it, I haven't found a single instance where you roll a to hit on any of those powers. NONE of the powers talk about rolling to hit, just the target you selected when you took your Psychic Test.

Furthermore:
"If the total is 5 of less.....then the power is resolved against the model you chose." So you actually don't roll to hit for a Focused Witchfire it would seem.

The line about psychic shooting attacks is a blanket statement for old powers. For example: Warp Lance is now classified as a Witchfire, as "This is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:" (pg 62 of the Tyranid codex).

EDIT: Gave credit where credit was due

[Deathnid]

Davor, its (please do not swear) common sence. when you resolve a psychic shooting attack you must roll to hit unless otherwise stated. stop trying to exploit it, we all know the broodlords in the crapper with this, so just stick with psychic powers you dont need a BS for (like blasts and templates). If you roll a power that you cant use, simply ask your opponent if you can re-roll, be the gentleman instead of exploiting the rules. if they say no, so be it, you should have picked biomancy instead of telekenesis.