6th Cover Rules and what they mean

[bigpig]

Tyranids live and die by cover. To the best of my ability, after reviewing them, here is a summary of the cover rules and how they work for us. Please feel free to correct any inconsistencies you see.

1) There are no specific or different rules for monstrous creatures and cover. The same rules apply for trygons and termagaunts.

2) Cover saves are determined on a model by model basis when it comes time to allocate the wound. Trace your LoS from all models in firing unit to the wounded model to determine if you get your save. ( Pg18 Determining Cover Saves).

3) Different models in the unit can have different cover saves. ( Pg 19 Units in Cover inset). This is different from 5th where the entire unit had a cover save or didn't. You can take advantage of this by utilizing "Focus Fire" which I won't go into on this synopsis

4) There is a general concept of being "in cover" which is described as having 25% or more of the model being obscured from the point of view of ANY MODEL in the firing unit. ( Pg 18 Determining Cover Saves ). The 5th edition "majority of firing models" rules does not apply. Note that this 25% rule is a general default rule which is overriden by some specific rules such as some area terrain and intervening units.

5) If LoS to the target model from any model in the firing unit passes through a third unit (friend or foe) the target model receives a 5+ cover save. This overrides the 25% rule. This applies even if LoS passes through gaps between models in the third unit. ( Pg 18 Intervening Models ). Yes, this means a bubblewrap of termagaunts can provide a 5+ to a tervigon or trygon!

6) Models in area terrain receive a base 5+ cover save regardless of whether they are 25% obscured or not. They receive a 3+ if they go to ground instead of 4+. ( Pg 91 Area Terrain )

7) Ruins provide a 4+ cover save if the model is "in cover" (25% obscured). The base of ruins is considered area terrain. I believe this means that you get a 5+ from being on the base and a 4+ if you are 25% obscured. ( Pg 98 Ruins: The basics and Ruins with bases )

8) Forests are area terrain and provide a 5+ cover to models inside them. The 25% rule does not apply. ( Pg 102 Cover Save )

9) If LoS from any model in the firing unit passes through a forest boundary, the target model receives a 5+ cover. The 25% rule does not apply. There is no distinction for "height". This means that if a flyer shoots at a trygon and the LoS passes through the boundaries of a forest, the trygon gets a 5+ save. ( Pg 102 Cover Save )

10) Some mysterious terrain offers increased cover saves for models receiving a cover save from them. ( Assorted Locations )

11) Wreckage and rubble is area terrain and grants a 4+ save ( Pg 105 Wreckage/Rubble )

12) Assorted pieces of terrain such as defense walls, ammo dumps, debris, etc have varied cover saves, but they all require the 25% obscurement rule. Remember, this is checked on a model by model basis and you only need to have 25% coverage from one shooting model.

13) Vehicles: Base obscurement from equipment, such as smoke, is now a 5+ cover save unless stated otherwise. ( Pg 75 Vehicles and Cover )

14) Vehicles: The 25% rules applies at all times. Vehicles do not get a cover save simply for being in area terrain. In addition, unlike other models where you can claim a cover save from 25% obscurement to only one firing model, the 25% cover must be from the MAJORITY of the models in the firing unit, not counting models armed with weapons that can't damage the target. ( Pg 75 Vehicles and Cover )

Summary of effect

The old method of making sure half your models were in cover so the whole unit could get the save does not apply. Cover saves are checked on a model by model basis, closest model first.

Bubblewrapping our Monstrous Creatures will grant them a 5+ save

Monstrous creatures in area terrain do get a cover save

With the exception of intervening units, models have to have 25% obscurement to claim saves from most pieces of terrain if not inside area terrain. Since this is on a model by model basis to all models in the firing movement, this could cause for some fiddly moving

What other thoughts does everyone have?

[Davor]

Great summery, thanks for taking the time to summerize for us.

[gigasnail]

@bullet #5: about to go out and eat here, do not have time to dig out rulebook. but does the rule from 5th ed about firing over a unit (not through it) still hold?

example: i have a group of marines, a unit of termigants, and a trygon about 10" behind the termagants. the marines fire at the trygon, but because of basic geometry you are not shooting through the termagants, you are shooting OVER them at the trygon.

some configurations of dreadnaughts used to be able to stand behind rhinos and have clear line of sight to shoot, but be obscured themselves for return fire.

[Deathnid]

yeah, thanks for that BigPig. saving it to my 6th ed notes

[warischoy]

so now in fact venomthropes are a very good choice especially at 2000 points. so now units can get a cover save bubble.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Jul 2, 2012 2:43:55 GMT gigasnail said:

@bullet #5: about to go out and eat here, do not have time to dig out rulebook. but does the rule from 5th ed about firing over a unit (not through it) still hold?

example: i have a group of marines, a unit of termigants, and a trygon about 10" behind the termagants. the marines fire at the trygon, but because of basic geometry you are not shooting through the termagants, you are shooting OVER them at the trygon.

some configurations of dreadnaughts used to be able to stand behind rhinos and have clear line of sight to shoot, but be obscured themselves for return fire.

Good question. I'd like to hear an answer to this as well.

Other than that, the more inuitive cover system makes up for the degraded Cover Save. I think this way a lot of discussions about cover will be avoided. Then again, to quote Seneca, the sum of all vices is constant.

Warischoy, I don't get what you're saying. How has the Venomthrope changed anything? Trygons and other Monsters still got the 5+ Cover save back in Fifth Edition.

[bigpig]

Jul 2, 2012 2:43:55 GMT gigasnail said:

@bullet #5: about to go out and eat here, do not have time to dig out rulebook. but does the rule from 5th ed about firing over a unit (not through it) still hold?

example: i have a group of marines, a unit of termigants, and a trygon about 10" behind the termagants. the marines fire at the trygon, but because of basic geometry you are not shooting through the termagants, you are shooting OVER them at the trygon.

some configurations of dreadnaughts used to be able to stand behind rhinos and have clear line of sight to shoot, but be obscured themselves for return fire.

Yes, this rule still holds. However, the shot would have to be totally clear. For example, a flier shooting over the tops of a termagaunt unit that is 8" in front of the Carnifex would easily avoid the cover save ( Note again that this does NOT apply to forests based on the wording, just intervening units ). If, however, any part of the LoS is obscured in any way, then you do get the save.

The way I'm reading it, it says "partially hidden". This doesn't mean, "Can you draw a line of sight that is not obscured." It means, "Is it blocked in any way?" Otherwise, you would always be drawing LoS to the tops or heads of models. In the case of ground units shooting over ground units at your models, you will most always be able to claim that save unless the target is some distance behind. All you have to do is get one shooting model to draw LoS to some part of the target model ( likely a leg ) through the intervening unit.

[warischoy]

you use to be able to puit half your gants in cover like forest to get a coversave and leave half outside to screen the rest of the army meaning that everyone gets a 4+ cover. with rule change that so it can no longer by done.

removing models from the front mean we actually lose about 4 inches of movement due to shooting each turn. we would want to avoid real cover to slow us down and instead employ mobile cover so that we can move as fast as possible. Now venomthrope cover is the same as normal cover meaning that we don't lose anything from not getting cover. in fact having mobile cover means that we can still advance with higher cover when there is nightfighting without sacrificing speed.

Tl;Dr : so now the venomthrope gives an army wide cover save in which people cannot deny by focus firing into models out of cover, while also not letting us slowed by difficult terrain.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Ahh, great observation! This does indeed make the Venomthrope even more useful. Still a shame about the loss of Defensive Grenades on nearby units.

[coredump]

5) If LoS to the target model from any model in the firing unit passes through a third unit (friend or foe) the target model receives a 5+ cover save. This overrides the 25% rule. This applies even if LoS passes through gaps between models in the third unit. ( Pg 18 Intervening Models ). Yes, this means a bubblewrap of termagaunts can provide a 5+ to a tervigon or trygon!


Bubblewrapping our Monstrous Creatures will grant them a 5+ save

I am going to disagree here. (a little)

Intervening models provide a 5+ save "in the same way as if it was behind terrain"

Since you need to be 25% covered if behind terrain, then the "same way" would indicate 25% obscured from intervening models.
But again, it only has to be from *one* firing model, so it shouldn't be too hard...

9) If LoS from any model in the firing unit passes through a forest boundary, the target model receives a 5+ cover. The 25% rule does not apply. There is no distinction for "height". This means that if a flyer shoots at a trygon and the LoS passes through the boundaries of a forest, the trygon gets a 5+ save. ( Pg 102 Cover Save )

But the rule does say "through a forest" (not just boundary), I would assert that it has to go through the forest, not simply over it.

[bigpig]

I hear ya Coredump and I thought the same when I first was reviewing the cover rules. In fact, I even pointed out to another member that their hormagaunts could not give a carnifex 25% concealment. My apologies to whomever that was

Check the language in total context;

"If a target is paritally hidden (note it doesn't say 25%) from the firer's view......it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain." Word interpretation of course, but in context it seems they are saying it receives a 5+ cover as if it were behind terrain not that if it is hidden in the same way as if it were behind terrain.

It then goes on to say "if a model fires through gaps between models......the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible"

You have an interesting argument on the forest. Open to more discussion.

[guns]

You're selectively quoting, though. Right after the sentence you quote comes another one: "Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit, rather than through it"

Shots taken at a Carnifex (with intervening Hormagaunts) will certainly go over them, and not through them, right?

Coredump is exactly right about forests. The word "through" leaves no debate; if the LoS is passing over top of a forest it is clearly not going through it. Nobody would claim LoS over top of a building was going "through" the building. In a TLoS system the height of a forest feature is an exact representation of its in-game silhouette.

A cool tidbit that wasn't mentioned here is that hills and ridgelines are specifically mentioned as giving a 4+ cover save (which is quite handy, since hills are one of the most common terrain features you will see across all types of game boards).

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Interesting, but what does that leave us at? In most cases, the shooting player could claim that his men are aiming for the head/upper body part of a model. While anything baring vehicles has a 360 degree horizontal vision, I don't recall reading anything about vertical vision. Hmm, perhaps it's like the old Doom computergame, where you weren't able to manipulate with the Y-axis, but just aligned the gun on the X-axis and then shot.

[coredump]

Well no, you still get cover if it is 25% covered. And HGaunts may be enough to get that on a fex; though termagants probably aren't.


Bigpig, you are right, when it says 'partially hidden' it doesn't explicitly state 25%; but because it doesn't have to, since that is how it would work 'if it were terrain'.

[bigpig]

Jul 2, 2012 7:24:45 GMT guns said:

You're selectively quoting, though. Right after the sentence you quote comes another one: "Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit, rather than through it"

Shots taken at a Carnifex (with intervening Hormagaunts) will certainly go over them, and not through them, right?

Coredump is exactly right about forests. The word "through" leaves no debate; if the LoS is passing over top of a forest it is clearly not going through it. Nobody would claim LoS over top of a building was going "through" the building. In a TLoS system the height of a forest feature is an exact representation of its in-game silhouette.

A cool tidbit that wasn't mentioned here is that hills and ridgelines are specifically mentioned as giving a 4+ cover save (which is quite handy, since hills are one of the most common terrain features you will see across all types of game boards).

With all due respect, I am definitely not selectively quoting. Selectivley quoting would glossing over or ignoring rules which would refute a point. In my original post I chose not to mention the shooting over in the interest of not typing the whole rule paragraph out because I thought I addressed it by saying if LoS passes through any model, backed up by mentioning LoS passing between gaps in models.

As mentioned in my response to Coredump, yes, if LoS COMPLETELY passes over the intervening unit, just as in 5th, there is no cover save. However, if you can draw a line of sight from any model in the firing unit to the target model through an intervening unit, then it gets a cover save. Again, "partially obscured", no reference to 25%.

Shots taken at a carnifex with intervening hormagaunts CAN go over them. They CAN also go through them, assuming of course that they are close enough and the vantage point of the shooting unit is not so high up as to be able to completely go over them. By the same token, shots at a unit of genestealers can clearly go over a unit of hormagaunts. "Look, I can see all their upper torsos and heads without obstruction." The point is that the language used in the Intervening Models section is "partially hidden" not "25%" or any other ratio. Look out your window. Is anything partially hidden? Certainly you could draw a LoS to that object that doesn't pass through the intervening object, yet you can also draw a LoS which is. It is "partially hidden". If you got up high enough, it could potentially be no longer "partially hidden."

Regarding the forests; As mentioned, I'd like discussion on it because I get both sides of the argument, I just don't like GWs language. You mentioned their word "through" saying it leaves no debate. Right after the senence you quote comes another ( .../cough ... ) "because they are shooting at a model beyond the forest." It then goes on to talk about this applying even if you moved the trees around, etc, so long as it goes through the boundaries of the forest. There is no mention of height, just the boundaries. What do they mean by "beyond?" Thats the question. Area Terrain on Pg 91 refers to the boundary as a flat outline. So then, to "pass through" the boundary does the LoS actually have to pass through the 2 dimensional flat piece or does it pass over it? I get what you are saying about tree height, but the rules as written don't seem to reflect that. Arguably thats because how tall would a forest be relative to a carnifex? What if my gaming group just uses a flat piece of felt to represent a forest, what then?

Regarding the building, I'm not suggesting trying to claim a cover save for shooting over (assuming it is completely over when drawing LoS to all parts of the target) the building, but the comparison is not accurate because the rules are different. Check the rules for ruins. All it says is "they provide a 4+ cover save." This goes back to the default 25% rule.

While I'm sold on the intervening unit cover save, I'm not 100% on the forest save, yet without mention of height and mention of boundary.... I don't know... What does everyone think based upon what the rules specificlly say? I didn't expect everyone to agree on day 3 , the purpose is to work it out and generate discussion.