What if the FoC goes away

[vecuu]

As was mentioned in this thread already, if FoC goes away, I wonder how many Tyranid Primes we would be able to take. In smaller games, it's not uncommon for me to take two Primes. I would love to take four or five in larger games. They are deadly, durable, and cost efficient.

[Voice of Reason]

Maybe I'm being too verbose.

did you not see this?

Honestly curious: You don't play fantasy, do you?
My goblin army has EVERYTHING that you're complaining about, my Lord slot is usually 1 big expensive lord, my Heroes are usually a raft of cheap goblin heroes, I usually field something like 40% Core, and field the maximum number of bolt throwers, catapults and mangler squigs.

The difference is that it's not JUST 25% max Rare or Special (40k translation arguably Fast Attack and Heavy) - both of those slots say you can't exceed a specific number of duplicated units, for example, you can't take more than 2 of the same Rare - so I'm limited to 2 Doom Divers, even though at 2500 I'd be able to field 7, almost 8 of them... or almost 10 Mangler squigs. That's a limitation taht's written into the core rulebook for WHFB.
Furthermore, I'm actually able to field twice as many Spear chuckas (special) than anyone else, because the goblins have that written into their codex.

It's entirely feasible for GW to write in the core rulebook something like:
"You may field no more than 3 of the same units from the Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy"
then in the Wolf FAQ, add an amendment that says they could take, say, 6 Lone Wolves.

As I recall, they shifted from FOC style rules in fantasy to % system in 8th, and it's worked out just fine. I really don't think it would be that hard. Just say that you can't have more than 2 or 3 duplicate choices in each slot except for troops and (maybe) HQ. Some codices can get exceptions for certain units. It also allows the force-org shifting units to work just fine.

[Space is pretty big]

Jun 9, 2012 12:47:50 GMT Jabberwocky said:

Jun 9, 2012 11:50:54 GMT Space is pretty big said:

Thinking about it, if FoC goes away, you could in theory have something like 6 broodlords in your army.

You already can

Err yeah, but I meant 6 BLs plus the basics like Termigaunts and Hormigaunts


It's weird but I'd reeeealy like to see FoC go away. It would be such and interesting game changer.

[TheContortionist]

well... it wouldn't change that much for us . 25% of 2000 is 500 and 3 groups of 3 hive guard are 450. it would change for deathstars in other armys. as they can easily get up to 500points of higher with one unit. who knows though, rumors are just that, rumors. we're just gonna have to wait and see. and we're getting closer everyday.

[vecuu]

I disagree. Three groups of 3 Hive Guard is cool, but if I were to ever feel the need to run that many Hive Guard without a FoC, I'd run five groups of two for 500 points and the potential to pop five vehicles a turn.

That is quite the change to our anti-mech when we can spread shots around like that easier.

[Space is pretty big]

Jun 9, 2012 20:18:22 GMT vecuu said:

I disagree. Three groups of 3 Hive Guard is cool, but if I were to ever feel the need to run that many Hive Guard without a FoC, I'd run five groups of two for 500 points and the potential to pop five vehicles a turn.

That is quite the change to our anti-mech when we can spread shots around like that easier.

Actually, that would be the biggest game changer: unit size. Assuming one to one firing remains, there would be a massive change in dynamic if you could have 6 one man fex units or the 5 two man HG units as listed above. Heck imagine the havoc of having 10 devil gaunt squads, each giving the other cover.

[Overread]

I suspect they'd counter that by having limits on units just like we have now. However instead of just limiting the number of units in a brood/squad they'd also limit how many of each you are allowed (esp for specialist units).

So yes - in theory you could add up to your % in heavy support in carnifexses, but on the flipside they'd adjust the rules so that you could only field X number at the most in any army. The other option they could include is limits per point level - that is you may have 1 carni per 500 points of your army. Again you can have more but only in a larger army (this second method is superior to the first mentioned because it helps avoid small game spamming of strong units and also means you can scale the game up to much larger battles)/.

[vecuu]

I agree they probably would add some sort of limiter to each unit type, but I don't know if it's entirely necessary, assuming Kill Point missions are still kicking around. Sure, you open up a lot more options with having ten one-man Hive Guard units, but you also leave yourself really vulnerable.

That being said, I'm still of the belief that the FoC vanishing is nothing more than wishful thinking. I do, however, enjoy the "What If?" game.

[patrunkenphat7]

I don't think this would be good for the game. Everyone is discussing only how this would affect 'nids. I'd say the majority of other armies could abuse this a LOT more, and the metagame would become even more spammy than it's ever been. I prefer balance, and a move like this would incentivize imbalanced lists. Even if you put 'unit caps' on same units, it would still become a ton more spammy. Do we want balance or big changes like this? I prefer balance personally.

[gigasnail]

if you prefer balance, you may be playing the wrong game

[Overread]

patrunkenphat7 - sadly GW gives balance a bit of a poor show considering that with each rules revision codexes have to wait in line before they get updated. Heck some armies can end up waiting for almost the entire run of the rules edition before they get a codex update (and we can all remember the Dark Elves missing out a whole rules edition!).

This coupled with the fact that GW likes to promote a race re-release with a codex that is always "the most powerful ever".


I do like GW games, but I do wish that they'd adopt a single rules and codex release. Which is partly why stripping something like the FOC is attractive to many because in order for it to actually work GW would be forced to release a big balanced update to all factions. Existing point costs and army limits simply would not function without the FOC control over them. Take the FOC away and a big part of existing points balancing goes with it - to the point where each faction will have major problems.

[patrunkenphat7]

I definitely agree that GW never makes rules with balance in mind; I just don't seeing how getting rid of the FOC for a percentage-based system would be something that the players would actually want. I don't think that this would be helpful for Tyranids. Sure we could do some cool things, but I don't think we could abuse it like a lot of other armies.

[Overread]

But other armies won't be able to abuse it any more or less than the FOC chart - because the points and unit limits will need revision before a % based system (or any other) could replace the FOC chart. So the potential for abuse would be removed by the introduction of new army building limits. GW would, as said, have to do this otherwise no current codex would work with a different deployment limit system - ergo GW would nullify adaptation to the new rules because no one would want them because they wouldn't be able to use them/

[fragile]

Heres a question in regards to balance. If you had no limits at all. You could field 2k points of whatever you wanted. What would you do? Would you go MC heavy? swarm? or would it be a mix?

[Davor]

Well looking at my Necron codex, if we have the FoC eliminated, I think having maxed out HQ choices would be eliminated and not possible. Forget the name at the moment, the Necrons that act like psyckers with the magic powers. You can take quite a bit of them.

Then again it does say they don't count toward the HQ choice so maybe this would mean they don't count toward the % either.

Same can be said for Tyranids as well. No more HT with 3 TG or 2 HT with 6 TG.

I can see some nerfs going on since points add up quickly when giving HQ units upgrades. I think there will be not as much kitting going on if more than one HQ is beging used.