Null deployment - as good as it gets

[N.I.B.]

I've had another couple of games against Necrons, and learned a few important things - each penetrating hit on a vehicle in a combat counts as +2 to combat resolution. Very important when you're fighting Necron Lords on CCB's - always go after the CCB first, you need to take out the mobility and you won't get cheated by a 5+ RP 'save' after the combat. Yesterday a Broodlord smashed a CCB with 3 pens which allowed me to run down the Necron Overlord. (I killed that Necron Overlord 3 times and saw it climb up again 3 times. Oh the joy).

The second one is that you only lose the game if you have no models on the table by the end of a FULL GAME TURN.
That means if I go second and have deployed Flyrant + any other unit, I can leave with the Flyrant at the end of turn 1 as long as I have at least a single other model alive on the table by the end of game turn 1. It doesn't matter if the other units are wiped out in my opponent's turn 2. Because in my turn 2 the rest of my army arrives on 2+. I always thought the rule said 'player turn'.

[Lanesend]

Thanks for the heads up on +2 combat resolution for penning vehicles in CC. I didn't know that.
Does that work on units still embarked in vehicles? (I would guess not, as the unit is not engaged, but want to know for sure)

[N.I.B.]

You answered that yourself - normally, units embarked in transports cannot participate in a combat. Chariots are an exception. You also need to remember the +2 for pens when fighting Walkers.

[Lanesend]

Good point. Thanks!

[N.I.B.]

Digging up this old corpse, I'm possibly taking the drop army to a tournament this weekend, haven't decided yet. The tournament will have one match with the stupid Hammer and Anvil deployment, so I'm kind of tempted to dust off ye olde 'Null' Deployment.

What I've found in play testing is that the troop count in my old versions isn't beefy enough for 6th ed, so I made a few changes. I won't have time to paint another Flyrant, so I'm looking at something like this -


Hive Tyrant - Wings, Hive Commander, Old Adversary, 2 TL Devourers

Doom, Mycetic Spore
2 Zoanthrope, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter
2 Zoanthrope, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon - AG, TS, Catalyst
Tervigon - AG, TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons

Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter
Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter
Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter

1995 points

Tervigons stay with codex powers as I can't afford to miss out on FNP.

[rpricew]

From my experience, you need hive commander more than you need old adversary.

Watch out for strikes squads with Sanctuary, and Inquisitor Coteaz combos.

Also, consider running a deepstriking Trygon with toxin in place of one of the Devilfex. I know on the surface it seems to be less efficient in a deepstriking list, but some of the strengths lie in other areas:
- Close combat prowess (Much bigger threat than Carnifex vs. MEQ)
- 6 wounds for increased survivability
- He CAN start on the board if you need added support to weather turn 1 / turn 2 shooting, while you wait on your reserves to arrive.
- And last, but not least the bullet sponge effect... Everyone fears the Trygon more than the Fex, so when u land him with everything else, he is a big Target.


I've been running mine with the spore Fex in my null list, and everytime I think of swapping him for another Devilfex, he proves his worth.

[dakkathrope]

I always played null deployment in 5th, but I've been hesitant to play it now. I might need to make more spores.

[rpricew]

I thought about it a lot and I had to come back to this list. So I wrote up my version of your list. I hope you like my suggestions.

HQ:
Hive Tyrant (Wings, HC, 2 sets TL Devs, Warlord) - 285

Elite:
Doom & Mycetic Spore -130
(2) Zoanthropes & Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitter) - 170
(8) Ymgarls - 184

Troop:
Tervigon (TS/AG/CC/2 Powers) - 220
Tervigon (TS/AG/CC/2 Powers) - 220
10 Termagants - 50
10 Termagants - 50

Heavy:
Carnifex (2 Sets TL Devs) & Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitter) - 240
Carnifex (2 Sets TL Devs) & Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitter) - 240
Trygon (TS) - 210

I think you need the reliability of having a unit that arrives from reserve that isn't effected by Psychic Defense, like the Ymgarls. They are just so versatile and have almost always earned their pay. I'm not sure if you are going for Psyker heavy army, if so then the Ymgarls will not fit in. But in an All Comers version the Ymgarls' versatility is just awesome.

I mentioned my reasons for taking a Trygon over a 3rd Devilfex. Again, it offers different strengths that the Devilfex doesn't. Mostly in assault and surviving the round that they arrive. My Devilfex almost always dies in assault, where it's the other way arround with the Trygon. He lives in assault and dies to shooting out of assault. However, if they are spending all of their time shooting him down, then the Devilfex's live to ruin their day in the subsequent rounds.

Finally, not that it really matters when you're making a tournament list, but I like to say that I'm not spamming the same units while I'm whipping your behind.

With only one FMC, I see you struggling with Dual Storm Raven lists... There were 4 of these, out of 20 players, at the last tournament that I played in.

But, I haven't been beaten with my Null deployment list in Hammer & Anvil yet. Depending on the opponent's gun line, if it's not too terrible, you can deploy all the way up at the 24" mark. Then by Turn 3 you will own the middle of the board while your Alpha Strike is punishing your opponent.

[N.I.B.]

Sept 27, 2012 15:29:24 GMT rpricew said:

From my experience, you need hive commander more than you need old adversary.

Watch out for strikes squads with Sanctuary, and Inquisitor Coteaz combos.

Also, consider running a deepstriking Trygon

Why do you think I need to choose between HC and OA? I have both, as you can see. And OA is great when you land between 4 Zoanthropes.

I've faced Sancuary Squads, almost tabled the last GK army I played. Sanctuary is annoying but can be worked around to some degree

I've tried and discarded CC reserve lists, I think I had that discussion somewhere in the first pages of this thread. Dakkafex in spore > Trygon. You need a critical mass of shooting to cripple your opponent the turn you land. Plus the Dakkafex with spore cover (even completely blocked from LOS) is about as survivable as a Trygon.

Ymgarls are great in some lists, but they cost a LOT and they die much easier in 6th ed and their average charge range is nerfed. Plus they don't provide synapse to keep the Dakkafexes shooting.

[rpricew]

I think you should drop OA since it's only re-rolling 1s and I haven't had a lot of success with it. Don't get me wrong, it's great for shooting infantry, but I am usually shooting tanks with the Flyrant for a couple of rounds and then only shooting infantry during the later rounds. That's just me, if it's working for you, then use it. Remember, you were putting up your list for our opinions...what works for us may not work for you. I was freeing up points for other things by dropping it.

I understand about the critical mass of shooting too. I currently bring in 7 units from reserves. 2 Flyrants, 1 Devilfex, Trygon, Ymgarls, Doom, & Deathleaper. If only a couple come in, then I'm in trouble.

All I was saying, is that the Trygon has a slightly different role than the Devilfex in the game. It brings different weapons to counter other things. A Carnifex will go down to a 10 man Tactical squad with a Powerfist. A Trygon probably wont. When you're two Devilfex's drop the vehicles, then the Trygon can shoot the tasty contents. Next round he assaults and wipes everything.

As far as Ymgarls go, they have been consistent all stars. Typically handing out more damage than other units...and they affect my opponent's deployment because of their Dormant Deployment.

This just comes from playing with them in 6th. Again, if you don't like it, then don't play it. I'm just offering up my experience. I'll try your lists and see how I like it, maybe it performs more consistently than I think.

[N.I.B.]

OA is more of a case of - 'I have 25 points, what to do?' It usually pays back as during a game you will roll a lot of 1's to wound, plus it's good in combat too were a Tyrant kitted for shooting can otherwise struggle, and it helps with the alpha strike.

Trygon is nice in combat and yes I understand that he has a slightly different role. But that's 200 points that have very little damage output when it lands.

That charging 10 Tactical Marines you're talking about, how did they survive the previous turn outside their transport? (because they can't disembark and charge in the same turn in 6th ed) And why did I stay inside charge range with my Dakkafex? When units step out against my drop lists they tend to die quickly. Also, it's a bit of a gamble charging Dakkafexes with a depleted squad, the Overwatch can sting. Don't forget the -1 Ld from Devourers.

Usually how I play is that I focus on a flank of the enemy army and work my way towards the center. I try to blow up transports with spores and Zoans foremost, and save the Dakkafexes and Flyrant and Doom for infantry. I can imagine a bunch of Marines crawling out of a wrecked transport, looking up and breathing a sigh of relief - 'Phew, it's only a Trygon, we will probably survive another turn so we can melta down some of the T4 critters or just be in the way and slow the enemy down!'

Dakkafexes are also superiour against Skimmer armies that a Trygon will never reach.

I do love Ymgarls. But I’m a bit tentative after having opponent’s arguing about area terrain, or just flooding the few strategically placed pieces on the table. Also the changes in 6th ed nerfed them a good deal (worse cover, Overwatch, Fleet crippled, unreliable charge lenght).

I don't say that your variant doesn't work, I just don't think it's the most effective against all-comers. I could be wrong of course, I have yet to test my newest list above. My alpha strike might be too weak now that I have two spores and 60 S4 shots less, and it could be that I might be forced to go in a more balanced direction with less impact on the alpha strike and more close combat and staying power.

Could look like this -

Hive Tyrant - Wings, Hive Commander, 2 TL Devourers
Hive Tyrant - Wings, 2 TL Devourers

7 Ymgarls
7 Ymgarls
7 Ymgarls

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon - AG, TS, Catalyst
Tervigon - AG, TS, Catalyst

Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter
Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter

1998 points

[rpricew]

The list with the 3 Ymgarls is one I've thought about but am afraid to try... LOL

Everytime I leave the Doom at home, I kick myself. I have a buddy that swears up and down about multiple units of Ymgarls, and just recently removed his Hive Guard for 2 units of Ymgarls, but again I think if it's all Ymgarls, or all Devilfex, then your opponents can too easily counter them.

When it's a little bit of everything...there is almost no counter.

"Oh you brought Ymgarls"
"I counter with rapid fire and I park in terrain"
"Oh yeah, here's my Zoanthropes, Doom, Carnifex, Trygon, Flyrant, Spore Pods and Ymgarls...let's see you counter that!!!"

There is a threat for everything.

In all fairness, I am going to try your first list next week when I play. I'm pretty open minded, and if I'm wrong and you have the key...I'm going to use it. (of course that means converting up two more Devilfex & Spores, but that's what proxy is for)

I have to work this weekend, but the next round of Tournaments is coming in about a month and I want the best list possible. I got tabled by Coteaz/Sanctuary list last weekend (see batrep in my signature) and I want to be prepared. That was the first major loss I've had in 6th edition and it stung a little. I also haven't faced Venom Spam in 6th and I think the Devilfex would do better against that for sure.

[drummerboy]

Just happened to notice that no one is dropping in devilgaunts in the last few lists posted. Is there a major reason for this? I haven't gotten to play much 6e due to school, but they seem like they would do really well in a list like this. Especially being that they are about the easiest way to get troops on an objective in the enemies deployment zone. Statistically they can tear through so many things due to their shear number of shots. Just curious?

Also, do Mawlocs not fill a good role in lists like this? Granted, their cc is subpar compared to the trygon, but they are slightly cheaper, just as tough outside of cc, and bring a S6 AP2 template which always did well in my devourer lists for 5th.

Thanks for all the good info so far.

[N.I.B.]

I've explained why I changed the list on this very page. If you can't be arsed to read I can't be arsed to be friendly. If I was an admin I would ban everyone that breathes the word 'Mawloc' in this thread.

Late edit - Jeez, what I jerk I was. My apologies, drummerboy.

[Psychichobo]

It's entirely possible he just misread it NIB, calm down.