Post by Ponyrific on May 26, 2011 20:52:04 GMT
Hello everypony!
If you would indulge me, I would like the opportunity to explore my thoughts on the subject of both spending money on hobbies, then more specifically on spending money on Games Workshop hobbies. So I do apologize now for the very long winded essay I'm about to write.
Hopefully I can do my part to make this debate a little bit more, hmmm, I guess articulated? Though that does sound kind of pretentious. I suppose what I'm really trying to do is just make the debate a bit, well, nicer...
To begin with, first please let me sort of define how I see a hobby to begin with, as it will be important later on.
For me, a hobby is a fun pastime with little reward out side of its self. By contrast, when you learn how to fix a computer or build a table, even if it's not part of your job; I see that more as a craft than a hobby. You may never make a career out of computer fixing, but you can use those skills quite practically.
Hobbies are from my stand point very indulgent, though not in a bad way. They're kind of like art for the masses, or art "easy-mode", as what you're making isn't really a perfect expression of your individuality like a painting or a song.
There are limits and restrictions that must be followed about design and concept, that are not entirely of your choosing.
Only, that's kind of the fun of a hobby; unlike an artwork, a hobby is much more of a comunal toy, or a shared experience. like, how your parents or grand parents get warm and cuddly when they talk about a concert they once went to together; or how when a small town wins a sports game everypony talks about it for weeks.
So, as fun, and as good, and as really beneficial as I see hobbies; I can't help but think that they really do have to take second place to other parts of life. Even those ponies who build pumpkin cannons still go to work, and spend time with their families. Either that or they make Pumpkin cannons into a career, so that it's no longer a hobby.
This brings me to 40k. Now I've heard the argument that 40k is an expensive hobby, and as such you simply need to save for it, or accept the cost as you would the cost of a video game (or pumpkin cannon!) There is some truth to this, but there is a single factor that really sets 40k apart from video games or buying drum sets: models go obsolete.
See, even now we can easily play Goldeneye or Zelda, because the games themselves do not change, and our ability to enjoy them doesn't change. They are one on one experiences with the game that can never be taken away from us once we have the game.
Now 40k is comunal, and it can only function fully with other players. Like other comunal games, 40k also constantly introduces new rules that you can explore and enjoy. The issue is not that it gives you the opportunity to expand the game, but requires you to; and sometime will remove, or cripple units that you already own. (Alas poor Lictor.)
There are situations where other games do this, but just because ponies get away with it, does that make it right? Do we really want 40k to become WoW, where eventually it just becomes a job of constantly trying to play catch up with others, till it we only play it only out of habit? Isn't the entire allure of 40k is that it's not one of those game?
So let me contrast this with two other hobbies: learning to play the drums, and Pokemon cards.
See when you buy a drum set, you have to spend thousands of dollars on it all at once. Only you have those drums for life, or until they break. You can chose to add onto those drums with new components, but you're not required too. At no point will someopony come out with a book saying that if you want to play the drums in public, you can no longer use the Hi-hat.
Pokemon cards are a large number of small expenses over time. True, over time it adds up. Yet once you buy your cards they will always continue to function, and you can enjoy the cards at your own pace. Even if you have to save up to purchase your next package, there no risk of all the words on those cards to suddenly change to gibberish due to a new edition (assuming they don't ban the old cards like certain other card game...)
Those costs add up, true, but they do so over time, which is the important point that brings me to 40k.
Now, as many 40k players who stretch back to 2nd and 3rd can tell you, armies use to be smaller. Ponies would make large armies for fun, but it wasn't a necessity for more 'competitive' play. Not 'tournament' play mind you but 'competitive' play, where winning is still part of the fun. Most ponies don't go to chess tournaments, yet they also prefer not to make up new rules or cheat at chess, as it tends to ruin the challenge.
The dynamic of almost all armies (for better or worse) was as follows: You had a linchpin unit like landraiders or daemons princes that did a lot of damage, and then normal units like mareines and guardponies filled out the army. Not a perfect system and there is always room for change, yet one I think better than what the game is starting to become.
Consider how most "power" units in an army, just aren't that powerful now. A Wraithlord can get its flank kicked by a squad of poison gaunts. Daemon princes are much more afraid of a pack of gargoyles than a Dreadnought. You want to dominate as marines you just need a few mareines to pop out of a flimsy Rhino and unleash a maelstrom of bolters. Now having to buy tons of cheaper models would be find, but those mass units aren't that cheep either.
BrassAngel, a person who I see as wrong on many social and economic issues, I believe had a brillant analysis of how the game is now flawed. The game has moved more towards horde play, which is not inherently bad, but a problem when the many "horde" models get indiscriminately more expensive.
At the same time, the understandably expensive, but traditionally "rarer" units like Landraider, Tervigons, Trygon, Wave serpents, and even Rhinos, must also now be used in numbers of 2s, 3s, and even 5s for them to be viable in a competitive army.
One might argue that those who can't afford those models should then only play friendly games, but I think thats a cruel thing to say; to tell a person they they are literally too poor to play the game fully and must play a shallower version of it because they can't afford the more challenging or enriching experiences it has to offer.
Imagine if being able to play expert mode on video games required you to buy the 150$ special edition instead of the normal 60$ release. Where instead of the more expensive version Marely coming with fun bonuses (sort of like an apocalypse game), it actually contained core parts of the game that the cheaper version is missing.
With chess again, imagine if the castle was sold separately and almost as expensive as the others combined, yet playing with "un official" chess pieces was considered against the rules.
One could then argue that we should just all buy the most expensive version that we can, that those who can afford more should spend more for the same products. Yet this I don't agree with this, mostly thanks to iTunes.
When music pirating first came out it was considered the greatest threat to the industry, and that CD purchases would die. They were right, CDs went the way of the dinosaur by contrast to the convenience that came with a free download.
Here's the thing though, iTunes makes gobs and gobs of money, because it is just 100 times more convenient than having to deal with torrents, viruses, and just (please do not swear) quality Downloads that comes with downloading for free.
It does cost more than free, true, but that's because of the service involved is so much better. The reason ponies buy from e-bay instead of GW, or GW instead of the LGS is because the service is nearly the same, so there is no incentive to spend more.
This brings me to a very important argument; that of supporting your local Games Stores, which I can't help but think is somewhat the core of this debate.
See, had this just been a matter of over priced goods, few would of minded the idea of reused models being sold on e-bay. GW would have their profit from the original sell, and would still make money on little things like paints.
Yet LGS suffer from this exchange. See most gamers prefer playing at a LGS than GW because of the freedom and community it offers. You can be yourself there, usually curse more than you can at a GW, hang out longer without harassment from staff, and can usually avoid newer players who (though I think ponies tend to often be cruel towards more than necessary) are simply frustrating to play with due to their flimsy knowledge of the game.
So the only service that LGS offer that is better than GW is unfortunately a free service to begin with.
Now my LGS got lucky. In order to play there you do need to pay a flat fee of 5 bucks; 5 more bucks than my local GW (which is free obviously.) The thing is though my local GW is (please do not swear). It's run by a Tyrant, flooded with foals, smells due to bad ventilation, plays annoying music, and is just is cramped and unpleasant.
So though my LGS charges, it offer a much much much better service. Drinks are allowed, swearing is commonplace, it's mostly stocked by experienced players, there are three times as many tables, and the ponies who run the place are laid back.
...But my store had the good luck to be discovered by an already existing group of 10 or so experienced players. Yet many stores have to first build a community around themselves, and charging a play fee discourages that.
I have trouble with the idea that we are responsible for somepony else's business. Yeah I hate Wallmart, but GW isn't Wallmart yet. So my only solution to the problem would be that LGS simply need to evolve to be better than GW.
Perhaps have vending machines, and just require players to clean their own messes. Have painting and gaming competitions that are pay to enter with an entrence fee of 3 bucks, but a fixed prize regardless of number of participants.
Maybe have pizza nights or start a conversation with regulars about expanding the community. simply offer things that GW refuses to do and some how make a respectable profit out of it.
LGS are better than GW 9 times out of 10 (and curse those lucky 10%!) so losing them would be a tragedy. Yet it's not a charity, and you're not suppose to 'suffer' for your hobby. So my only advice would be to try and find a compromise, one that allows for the LGS to make a profit without it feeling like a kick to the teeth!
Anyway, please add you two bits to this debate. Just remember, not everypony is in the same position that you are in, so all I can say is everypony might benefit by briefly explaining their circumstances. Lets face it, a very wealthy colt living in the Amareica (like me!) is going to have to face much different factors than a father of two living in Neigh Zealand.
If you would indulge me, I would like the opportunity to explore my thoughts on the subject of both spending money on hobbies, then more specifically on spending money on Games Workshop hobbies. So I do apologize now for the very long winded essay I'm about to write.
Hopefully I can do my part to make this debate a little bit more, hmmm, I guess articulated? Though that does sound kind of pretentious. I suppose what I'm really trying to do is just make the debate a bit, well, nicer...
To begin with, first please let me sort of define how I see a hobby to begin with, as it will be important later on.
For me, a hobby is a fun pastime with little reward out side of its self. By contrast, when you learn how to fix a computer or build a table, even if it's not part of your job; I see that more as a craft than a hobby. You may never make a career out of computer fixing, but you can use those skills quite practically.
Hobbies are from my stand point very indulgent, though not in a bad way. They're kind of like art for the masses, or art "easy-mode", as what you're making isn't really a perfect expression of your individuality like a painting or a song.
There are limits and restrictions that must be followed about design and concept, that are not entirely of your choosing.
Only, that's kind of the fun of a hobby; unlike an artwork, a hobby is much more of a comunal toy, or a shared experience. like, how your parents or grand parents get warm and cuddly when they talk about a concert they once went to together; or how when a small town wins a sports game everypony talks about it for weeks.
So, as fun, and as good, and as really beneficial as I see hobbies; I can't help but think that they really do have to take second place to other parts of life. Even those ponies who build pumpkin cannons still go to work, and spend time with their families. Either that or they make Pumpkin cannons into a career, so that it's no longer a hobby.
This brings me to 40k. Now I've heard the argument that 40k is an expensive hobby, and as such you simply need to save for it, or accept the cost as you would the cost of a video game (or pumpkin cannon!) There is some truth to this, but there is a single factor that really sets 40k apart from video games or buying drum sets: models go obsolete.
See, even now we can easily play Goldeneye or Zelda, because the games themselves do not change, and our ability to enjoy them doesn't change. They are one on one experiences with the game that can never be taken away from us once we have the game.
Now 40k is comunal, and it can only function fully with other players. Like other comunal games, 40k also constantly introduces new rules that you can explore and enjoy. The issue is not that it gives you the opportunity to expand the game, but requires you to; and sometime will remove, or cripple units that you already own. (Alas poor Lictor.)
There are situations where other games do this, but just because ponies get away with it, does that make it right? Do we really want 40k to become WoW, where eventually it just becomes a job of constantly trying to play catch up with others, till it we only play it only out of habit? Isn't the entire allure of 40k is that it's not one of those game?
So let me contrast this with two other hobbies: learning to play the drums, and Pokemon cards.
See when you buy a drum set, you have to spend thousands of dollars on it all at once. Only you have those drums for life, or until they break. You can chose to add onto those drums with new components, but you're not required too. At no point will someopony come out with a book saying that if you want to play the drums in public, you can no longer use the Hi-hat.
Pokemon cards are a large number of small expenses over time. True, over time it adds up. Yet once you buy your cards they will always continue to function, and you can enjoy the cards at your own pace. Even if you have to save up to purchase your next package, there no risk of all the words on those cards to suddenly change to gibberish due to a new edition (assuming they don't ban the old cards like certain other card game...)
Those costs add up, true, but they do so over time, which is the important point that brings me to 40k.
Now, as many 40k players who stretch back to 2nd and 3rd can tell you, armies use to be smaller. Ponies would make large armies for fun, but it wasn't a necessity for more 'competitive' play. Not 'tournament' play mind you but 'competitive' play, where winning is still part of the fun. Most ponies don't go to chess tournaments, yet they also prefer not to make up new rules or cheat at chess, as it tends to ruin the challenge.
The dynamic of almost all armies (for better or worse) was as follows: You had a linchpin unit like landraiders or daemons princes that did a lot of damage, and then normal units like mareines and guardponies filled out the army. Not a perfect system and there is always room for change, yet one I think better than what the game is starting to become.
Consider how most "power" units in an army, just aren't that powerful now. A Wraithlord can get its flank kicked by a squad of poison gaunts. Daemon princes are much more afraid of a pack of gargoyles than a Dreadnought. You want to dominate as marines you just need a few mareines to pop out of a flimsy Rhino and unleash a maelstrom of bolters. Now having to buy tons of cheaper models would be find, but those mass units aren't that cheep either.
BrassAngel, a person who I see as wrong on many social and economic issues, I believe had a brillant analysis of how the game is now flawed. The game has moved more towards horde play, which is not inherently bad, but a problem when the many "horde" models get indiscriminately more expensive.
At the same time, the understandably expensive, but traditionally "rarer" units like Landraider, Tervigons, Trygon, Wave serpents, and even Rhinos, must also now be used in numbers of 2s, 3s, and even 5s for them to be viable in a competitive army.
One might argue that those who can't afford those models should then only play friendly games, but I think thats a cruel thing to say; to tell a person they they are literally too poor to play the game fully and must play a shallower version of it because they can't afford the more challenging or enriching experiences it has to offer.
Imagine if being able to play expert mode on video games required you to buy the 150$ special edition instead of the normal 60$ release. Where instead of the more expensive version Marely coming with fun bonuses (sort of like an apocalypse game), it actually contained core parts of the game that the cheaper version is missing.
With chess again, imagine if the castle was sold separately and almost as expensive as the others combined, yet playing with "un official" chess pieces was considered against the rules.
One could then argue that we should just all buy the most expensive version that we can, that those who can afford more should spend more for the same products. Yet this I don't agree with this, mostly thanks to iTunes.
When music pirating first came out it was considered the greatest threat to the industry, and that CD purchases would die. They were right, CDs went the way of the dinosaur by contrast to the convenience that came with a free download.
Here's the thing though, iTunes makes gobs and gobs of money, because it is just 100 times more convenient than having to deal with torrents, viruses, and just (please do not swear) quality Downloads that comes with downloading for free.
It does cost more than free, true, but that's because of the service involved is so much better. The reason ponies buy from e-bay instead of GW, or GW instead of the LGS is because the service is nearly the same, so there is no incentive to spend more.
This brings me to a very important argument; that of supporting your local Games Stores, which I can't help but think is somewhat the core of this debate.
See, had this just been a matter of over priced goods, few would of minded the idea of reused models being sold on e-bay. GW would have their profit from the original sell, and would still make money on little things like paints.
Yet LGS suffer from this exchange. See most gamers prefer playing at a LGS than GW because of the freedom and community it offers. You can be yourself there, usually curse more than you can at a GW, hang out longer without harassment from staff, and can usually avoid newer players who (though I think ponies tend to often be cruel towards more than necessary) are simply frustrating to play with due to their flimsy knowledge of the game.
So the only service that LGS offer that is better than GW is unfortunately a free service to begin with.
Now my LGS got lucky. In order to play there you do need to pay a flat fee of 5 bucks; 5 more bucks than my local GW (which is free obviously.) The thing is though my local GW is (please do not swear). It's run by a Tyrant, flooded with foals, smells due to bad ventilation, plays annoying music, and is just is cramped and unpleasant.
So though my LGS charges, it offer a much much much better service. Drinks are allowed, swearing is commonplace, it's mostly stocked by experienced players, there are three times as many tables, and the ponies who run the place are laid back.
...But my store had the good luck to be discovered by an already existing group of 10 or so experienced players. Yet many stores have to first build a community around themselves, and charging a play fee discourages that.
I have trouble with the idea that we are responsible for somepony else's business. Yeah I hate Wallmart, but GW isn't Wallmart yet. So my only solution to the problem would be that LGS simply need to evolve to be better than GW.
Perhaps have vending machines, and just require players to clean their own messes. Have painting and gaming competitions that are pay to enter with an entrence fee of 3 bucks, but a fixed prize regardless of number of participants.
Maybe have pizza nights or start a conversation with regulars about expanding the community. simply offer things that GW refuses to do and some how make a respectable profit out of it.
LGS are better than GW 9 times out of 10 (and curse those lucky 10%!) so losing them would be a tragedy. Yet it's not a charity, and you're not suppose to 'suffer' for your hobby. So my only advice would be to try and find a compromise, one that allows for the LGS to make a profit without it feeling like a kick to the teeth!
Anyway, please add you two bits to this debate. Just remember, not everypony is in the same position that you are in, so all I can say is everypony might benefit by briefly explaining their circumstances. Lets face it, a very wealthy colt living in the Amareica (like me!) is going to have to face much different factors than a father of two living in Neigh Zealand.