Chaos v Space Marines

[Folken]

Sup Hive populace? I suppose this is a question that has to do with tactics and thusly I posted it here. If not then move it.

But anyway, I'm looking into starting a second army. My Tyranids are fine and dandy and I love them but I want to play something else too. I was thinking of an Space Marine army and with the new codex coming out it seemed like a good choice. But I was also thinking of an Chaos army. I absolutely love the look,feel, and play style that Typus has, you know the " I might take forever and a day to get to you but when I do your dead" kinda feel.

Plus Chaos has alot of interesting toys to play with, I still get things like Land Raiders,bikes,termies,dreds nd the like plus some other cool rules and stuff.

But then from what I'm hearing regarding the New Marines 'dex is that there are going to be some new, and seriously bad-ass, special characters for each of the chapters. And the Marines are going to get a new kind of Land Raider and Dred. But really those things don't interest me all that much. Sure they may be big and scary but it only takes one Lass-cannon, or charge in our case, to take them down.

I'm also taking into account the new rending Nerf that I hear is almost certain now. Since our 'stealer's will no longer be able to tank hunt as much, it always was a secondary thing for them anyway, I'm really leaning toward an army that won't be affected by the change as much, or at least that's what I think.

I also have some question that I would like some feedback on if the Hive Populace would be so gracious as to answer.

Since I want to kinda have a Nurgle theme going, but not to the exclusion of the other gods, how best should I do this? I was thinking that I could run him and a full squad of Nurgle termies and just let them reek havoc as best they can.

What are some of the draw backs, flaws in the new Chaos 'dex?

Will 5th edition greatly affect Chaos? Yes? No? Please explain.

Should I go with regular Space Marines because they are GW's baby's?

Well those are about all the questions that I can think right now, and thanks in advance for any feedback that I may get.

[thaloas]

quite some questions, some answers as well:

drawback of TM lord and termies is that they are not one squad; efor deepstriking, they don't necessarily arrive at the same time.

drawbacks in the chaos codex? quite a lot; no plasma cannon for your havoc, for one, expensive units and - nurgle themed bikers are expensive (but come with T6 ). It's a versatile army, but in general will be small-ish. Summoned daemons are bo-ring, quite a lot of fluffy things have been moved to the daemonic codex...

next edition, I don't know much about yet...

last: going with spacemarines would not be my style (at all), but that's personal. Doing it because their GW's hobby would not even dare entering my mind, on account of being kicked out again by the daemons in my head

and a tactical marine has no close combat weapon, a CSM does

[WestRider]

In general, CSMs tend to be even more elite (and thus more expensive) than normal Marines. There's a 1750 Point Chaos v. Chaos Batrep a little ways back in the Other GW Board that had a total of 84 Models on the board from both all infantry armies combined.

Drawbacks: Besides being more expensive, CSMs are missing a bunch of the toys that the Loyalists have. No Land Raider Variants, no Speeders at all, no Razorbacks or Whirlwinds, no Plasma Cannon, etc.

Advantages: Flexibility, mostly. Marks and Icons of Chaos let you customize your forces to a degree that the new SM Dex won't allow. Additionally, CSMs can take variable sized Units, while normal Marines are getting stuck with just 5 or 10 for most Squads. Vets can Infiltrate, Chaos Termis have way more options than Imperials do. Pretty much every Chaos model has an extra CCW, as well as his Bolter or whatever, so their Units are inherently capable of taking on multiple roles.

Both armies are pretty flexible, I think Chaos has a bit more of a bias towards Assault and Marines have a bit more bias towards shooting, but both can be fit to either approach.

Nurgle is quite powerful in the new Dex, with FNP for Plague Marines and the potential for T6 Bikers and such.

Either way, though, go with what you think looks cool. Either Dex is flexible and solid enough that you can probably make it work.

[Folken]

Thanks for the feedback thus far guys.
But I have a couple of questions. What do you guys mean Chaos can't have plasma weapons? I just played a guy and his Oblits had Plasma weapons. Granted I don't know if this is only for Oblits.
I kinda knew that Choas where elite-ish but then again they are Marines and are meant to be,right? For me personally I don't mind having a small army as long as it can deliver. Thats why I'm looking at a Marine army. Sure there are Necrons but there just not my cup of tea.
I'm not really going for a Nurgle theme for my army, I just whant Typus and a squad of Marines to walk down the board and kill everything.

Granted I do understand that a Nurgle army is very powerfull. But I think I'm going to use some Thousand Son's, for thier AP 3 bolters and Soccerors (sp?). I might use some Berzerkers and Noise Marines but eh...

Regarding Greater Deamons and lesser deamons, what are thier draw backs? I know that Greater Deamons require the Socceror thats casting the summoning to die but other than that I don't see any major draw backs to them. But then again I have no experince to back me up. I don't know anything about Lessers other than the fact that they have a 5+ inv. and can come in a big 'ol group.

How do Marks and Icons work? I.E. Typus is running with a termie squad, do I have to make the Termies Nurgle or can I mark them for a 4+ inv.? ( sorry, but I'm not even going to TRY and spell that gods name)

Why don't we have Speeders, Razorbacks, Raider varinents etc etc etc.?

Can I use the Deamons codex and the Choas codex together? Kinda like how Grey Knights can take allies?

Now this is just kinda a me question here but bear with me please, compared to the other special chacters in the SM codex, is Typus any good?

Thanks for the advice thus far, its helping me build more of a picture in my mind as to what I whant to do.

[invictus]

No not that chaos can't have plasma, but the heavy support Chaos Havocs cannot have Plasma Cannons.

Drawbacks of greater demons. If you don't have a model that can be used to summon the demon then it is lost, units that come into play that turn from reserves can't be used either. Sometimes they come in at the absolute worse times lol. as for lesser, not much to say about them I've only seen them used as fodder (I'm not a chaos player so). Though they look semi-decent, just have well a sucky save. They also must come into play via deepstrike near a squad that has an icon.

Just remember if you are using thousand sons as troops if you remove the aspiring sorcerer to bring in the demon (or you lose him some other way) they only move 1d6 with slow and purposeful.

As for the Marks not sure, think they got rid of the "fighting gods" thing so, you could...
No speeders, razorbacks or Raider variants... well mainly because they aren't pure marines anymore. They only have what they took with them or stole after the fall. So maybe they did have the speeders and razobacks at some point but they have gotten unusable. as for the raider variant, that started with the Black Templers before the other SM chapters (cried that they wanted one) took the design.

Not sure if you can use the new Daemon's Codex with the chaos one, I haven't actually gotten a chance to read through the new codex, only got a glance at it.

Typus- He doesn't seem that bad to me, though I have only seen Fabius Bile & Doom Rider (old character) in games so my experience is well limited.

[WestRider]

Yep, Plasma Cannon are Oblits and Dreads only.

The Daemons' main drawback, as mentioned, is their unpredictability. Their stats are OK, but not great, and for that cost, with the lack of reliability, they just aren't really worth it. You can't use the Daemon Codex Units as Allies, unfortunately.

Yeah, you can combine Marks freely in an army now, but don't be surprised if long time Chaos Players get annoyed if they see you mixing Slaanesh and Khorne or Nurgle and Tzeentch, as those pairings were historically incompatible.

The lack of Speeders and other advanced equipment is due to the fact that most of the Chaos Marines split off from the Imperium thousands of years ago, before these items/variants were developed or recovered from STC systems. So no SMs had that equipment at the time when most of the CSMs turned traitor, and they haven't looted them or been joined by renegade chapters in sufficient numbers to make those variants and such a notable part of their armoury.

Typhus is pretty badass, but whether or not he'll stack up to the SCs in the new SM Dex, I can't say, since I haven't seen them.

[Folken]

Huh...well this is intresting. No Speeders and Razorbacks 'cause there weren't any back in the day...yet...Chaos and SM's have been at it for more than a couple rounds now and they still don't have them....Yup, sounds like GW logic to me.

Anyway, other than the fact of not having them I really don't see a big problem in not having said things...I mean sure Speeders are fine and dandy but when gaunt shooting can take down a 100+ point model it kinda makes me go meh...

This may be a noob question but whats the big deal about Havocs not having Plasma weapons anymore? Where they only good to deliver said firepower?

Since I can now throw together all the gods into one rowdy bunch what are,have been, some of the best combos out there? I was thinking that I could run Nurgle, for the toughness and staying factor, and then maybe throw in a dash of some Thousand Son's. Just don't know...

How many deamons can you take? I herd that you can take as many as you have points for.

With 5th edition around the cornor and the new modles that are bound to come along with it , thinking drop pods here, will these kinds of things greatly affect Chaos?

Thanks for the feed back guys.

[WestRider]

The Havocs just don't have Plasma Cannon available. Plasmaguns and Plasma Pistols were in widespread use by the time of the Horus Heresy, but the Plasma Cannon had not been reduced to a man-portable size, so it was limited to use on Dreadnoughts. Obliterators aren't literally armed with Plasma Cannon, they just generate some blast that is functionally identical.

To understand why the Chaos forces haven't incorporated any of this new stuff into their arsenals, you have to go back to the old fluff, when it was all about the 9 Traitor Legions who sided with Horus 10,000 years ago. Those Marines extended their hatred of the Imperium to include anything that had been developed or otherwise changed since their betrayal. These things were reminders of just how far they had fallen, and they would choose to desecrate and destroy them whenever encountered, rather than capturing and using them. The 2nd Edition Codex is probably the best balance of availability and completeness of fluff, but the 4th Ed Dex wasn't bad. Finding and reading a copy of one or both of those will give you a much better understanding of why the list differs from the Loyalist Dex in the ways it does.

Daemons are outside the Force Org chart. Once you've got your Mandatory Units, you can take one Greater Daemon, and as many lesser Daemons as you like.

[voraciousapathy]

The Chaos Army I run with is:

Chaos Sorceror-
-Plasma Pistol
-Personal Icon
-Warptime
-Gift of Chaos
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Bike

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch-
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Wings
-Warptime

2 x 7 Thousand Sons + Asp. Sorceror
-Doombolt
-Personal Icon

9x Plague Marines + 1 Plague Champion
-Plasma Pistol
-Powerfist
-2x Meltagun

3x Rhino

8x Summoned Lesser Daemons (Skeletons)

6x Obliterators


As a tournament list, it packs both long range punch, with a vicious and rock-solid close-combat core of plague marines, supported by a Prince and Necromancer Chaos Sorceror (a very expensive one, but excellent for what he's meant to do). The Thousand Sons in their Rhino can lay down disturbingly deadly AP3 firepower in the 12'' area, and with personal icons in both squads, as well as on the Sorceror, a squad of 8 skeletons can be summoned in to claim table quarters, solidify holds on a loot counter, or to back up the assaulty portion of the army in a pinch. As for how one can 'justify' Nurgle and Tzeentch combinations, check out the 'Horned Rat' deity of the Skavens.. and besides, Necromancy is a perfectly acceptable form of sorcery, with skeletons for 'Counts As' lesser daemons, re-animated Ultramarine Terminators for Obliterators, Plague Marines as zombies, and Thousand Sons as ghosts, lead by aspiring necromancers..

Well, I mean, that's -my- theme, but it's only an example. Nurgle and Tzeentch play VERY well together. Give it a shot.

[andersschm]

Chaos.

[coredump]

I suppose this is a question that has to do with tactics and thusly I posted it here. If not then move it.

It may be about tactics, but the Tactics forum is meant for Nid tactics. So here ya go...

[Folken]

Sorry Coredump.

Okay, so I'm back with a new question(s). Does Choas get scouts? Why did the get rid of the god specific Greater Deamons and such? Is the Deflier the trade off for the speeder?

[WestRider]

No Scouts for Chaos, but their Chosen can Infiltrate, and have way better Weapon Options.

I can't answer your second question without referring to Gav Thorpe using words that this forum frowns on.

Nope, the Defiler is just its own thing. As I said before, to really understand why the Loyalist and Chaos Marine lists differ in the ways they do, you need to look at the old army lists and see how they've both evolved off in different ways from roughly the same starting concept.