Space Marine codex rumors from BoLS

[CylonDorado]

May 26, 2008 18:17:02 GMT Facade [TVTP] said:

I hate marines....well at least their new cheesy rules.

Nids aren't really gonna get anything good. The rules just keep taking away from Nids

Whatever, every army has way to completly break and win a lot, even our precious 'nids. I find these new rules refreshing, as it will hopefully make marines less laughably pathetic . I'm concerned about my new Eldar army being left in the dust by all these other new armies coming out, and the rules changes.

I heard the marines got free chainswords with thier bolt pistols and granades. Just a rumor?

[Enigma]

Well, then what would be the point of the pistols? Space marines would get bolters instead of pistols if the chainsword didn't come free. It doesn't grant a strength bonus, it just looks so cool.

[WestRider]

Nope, no Chainswords with their Bolt Pistols. The Bolt Pistols are there for two reasons: To fit the Fluff, and to allow the Marines to fire in situations where they otherwise couldn't. (Heavy Weapon Troopers will still be able to fire their Bolt Pistols on the move, a Tac Squad can open up with them before Charging, etc.)

[graveaccomplice]

May 27, 2008 22:20:09 GMT Enigma said:

Well, then what would be the point of the pistols? Space marines would get bolters instead of pistols if the chainsword didn't come free. It doesn't grant a strength bonus, it just looks so cool.

It gives them an option to fire and still assault if they want. As mentioned earlier, it also gives those with special or heavy weapons a chance to fire and still move.

Standard marines won't keep to their feel if they get swords and pistols. People will treat them like chaos marines: fire and charge, forget the tactics. Marines are too good not to. It's most likely the reason why bolters haven't been made Assault class weapons. It will change how marines are played, and not towards what GW wants.

[thanatos]

I can't believe you'd complain about assault cannons. You guys do realize they lost the 2 per termi squad rule. And alot of people have stated that the cannon itself may lose rending. I'd say if I were planning a competitive marine list I'd be very concerned right now with the new rumors coming out. Looking forward to the loss of ATKNF and possibly a nerf on their best weapon along with the current v5 rending nerf? No thanks, I'd find something more viable in their stead.

[yoritomo]

Yes, I realize that terminators loose an assault cannon, but look at what else gains assault cannons. It's to the point where you don't need to field terminators in order to have a bunch of assault cannons. Think about it, every 6 man tactical squad will have a lascannon, a plasma gun, and a twin-linked assault cannon.

I haven't heard anything about the assault cannon loosing rending, but I wouldn't cry if it happened. And for the record, 5th ed did not take anything away from the assault cannon when it changed rending.

I still think there's a good chance that this will be a power gaming army.

[rebmonk]

If you look in the 5th edition rulebook they play a game in the back and the guy appears to use the new space marine codex.

What we concluded from it:

Space marines will have the tactical squad ability
The vehicle point cost has been reduced to match the dark angel vehicles
Assault marines have reduced in points
devastators have reduced in points

[thanatos]

As per 5th ed sm rumors, that tactical squad will likely be taking 1 lascannon OR 1 plasma gun.

Also, yoritomo, your statement about 5th ed not doing anything to assault cannon effectiveness is wrong as per the maths. Lets take our friends the termi squad with 2X assault cannon:

now (4th ed)
you have a 1/6th chance for rend on 8 dice, so you likely will get 1.33 rending hits from the pair

soon (5th ed)

you shoot and .66 of your shots hit, so out of 8 lets go with 5.7 or rounding make it 6. Now you have a 1/6 chance of a rend to wound with about 2 less dice, or roughly 1 wound for the pair.

So, infact, 5th ed. rending has taken away from the assault cannon.

I really don't do mathammer well so thats why I didn't do more cutesy refined calculations. That and I'm at work, dur.

Correct me if this is wrong.

[Trygon]

Pictures of the new models:

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212683.page

[yoritomo]

Jun 5, 2008 7:44:04 GMT thanatos said:

Also, yoritomo, your statement about 5th ed not doing anything to assault cannon effectiveness is wrong as per the maths. Lets take our friends the termi squad with 2X assault cannon:

now (4th ed)
you have a 1/6th chance for rend on 8 dice, so you likely will get 1.33 rending hits from the pair

soon (5th ed)

you shoot and .66 of your shots hit, so out of 8 lets go with 5.7 or rounding make it 6. Now you have a 1/6 chance of a rend to wound with about 2 less dice, or roughly 1 wound for the pair.

So, infact, 5th ed. rending has taken away from the assault cannon.

Here's your problem, you're only looking at rending. What about the other 5 chances that don't rend?

I'm pressed for time right now, so I can't break down the math for you. If you're really interested I did it in the 5th ed rumors thread a while back.

Basically if you do the math you'll find that 5 out of 27 shots will wound a space marine with the nerf. Right now 7 out of 27 shots will wound. That's a difference of 1 wound every 14 shots. I don't exactly see that as a big hit.

I'll try and come back to this if I can find the time.

[ryshi]

Jun 5, 2008 13:03:05 GMT Trygon said:

Pictures of the new models:

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/212683.page

Does anyone else see the large Thud gun thing next to the techmarine being given arms, and nicknamed the "angry wall-e(from the new summer movie)"?

[thanatos]

Jun 5, 2008 14:27:18 GMT yoritomo said:

Jun 5, 2008 7:44:04 GMT thanatos said:

Also, yoritomo, your statement about 5th ed not doing anything to assault cannon effectiveness is wrong as per the maths. Lets take our friends the termi squad with 2X assault cannon:

now (4th ed)
you have a 1/6th chance for rend on 8 dice, so you likely will get 1.33 rending hits from the pair

soon (5th ed)

you shoot and .66 of your shots hit, so out of 8 lets go with 5.7 or rounding make it 6. Now you have a 1/6 chance of a rend to wound with about 2 less dice, or roughly 1 wound for the pair.

So, infact, 5th ed. rending has taken away from the assault cannon.

Here's your problem, you're only looking at rending. What about the other 5 chances that don't rend?

I'm pressed for time right now, so I can't break down the math for you. If you're really interested I did it in the 5th ed rumors thread a while back.

Basically if you do the math you'll find that 5 out of 27 shots will wound a space marine with the nerf. Right now 7 out of 27 shots will wound. That's a difference of 1 wound every 14 shots. I don't exactly see that as a big hit.

I'll try and come back to this if I can find the time.

I thought we were talking about how rending had taken away from the assault cannon. I'm not too worried about other wounds, as usually the targets of the assault cannons (fexes, my flyrant) will laugh off even a decent number of non-rending wounds. Clearly the to wound part of the equation really hasn't changed as the mechanics of the gun (aside from rending special rule) haven't changed, but its the fact that now, on top of all those 'wounds' you won't be inflicting additional 'wounds with no save regardless of toughness and rip apart a land raider with ease' rolls.

Basically count how many 6's to hit your opponent gets the first time he fires his 2 assault cannon termies or land speeder, and smile that he has to now roll those 6's again to wound in order to get what he just earned per the last edition rules set. I know my fexes will appreciate those marines having to reroll their precious 6's to hit to see if they can get a wounding roll of the same.

Its a fair reduction in efficiency to the gun itself and I think plenty of tourney marine players will be looking at their assault cannons with slightly less rose colored goggles.

[WestRider]

Actually, the Anti-Vehicle effectiveness of the Assault Cannon barely suffers at all, since Rending was always part of the AP roll there, and with a S6 gun, you've still got a minimum of 13 on a Rending Hit. Against Armour Values 12 or less, the equation doesn't change at all. Let's look at AV 14.

5th Ed: 4 shots*2/3 to-hit*1/6 to-Rend *1/3 to Pen=~15% chance of Penetrating a Land Raider per Assault Cannon, with the same odds for a Glance.

4th Ed:4 shots*2/3 to-hit*1/6 to-Rend*2/3 to Pen=~30% chance to Pen a Land Raider, with another ~7% chance for a Glance.

So the odds of doing something only went down from 37% to 30%, although more of those hits will be Glances.

Just for a bit of a baseline: Lascannon: 2/3 to-hit*1/6 to Pen=~11% chance of Penetrating per Lascannon, same odds for a Glance.

[rfly]

Assualt cannons aside...
I like most of the changes, except no 2 specials. I love the sound of the new Tu'Shan - Rock hard. Just like special characters, especialy Space marines, and even more so, Salamanders, should be. I'd pay 200-250 points for a rock in adimantium armour. With a sword.

[yoritomo]

Why would you just worry about rending on a weapon. If my opponent shoots something at me I'm concerned about what the weapon will do to me, not just part of what the weapon can do.

The change to rending does four things:

It reduces the amount of chances you have to rend,
It removes the auto wound,
It removes the ability to wound anything,
And it reduces the amount of armor penetration on a rending hit.

How do these affect the assault cannon? Ok, you have less chances to get a rend. But with a space marine Bs it isn't all that much (1/9 instead of 1/6). Plus, if you find some way of twin-linking your assault cannons (i.e. razorbacks) then you chance to get a rending hit stays about the same.

The assault cannon looses the ability to auto wound. But it already wounds on a 2+ against most things, does it really need to auto wound? Same thing with the ability to wound anything, it can already do that.

And against vehicles, well westrider already pointed that one out.

Forgive me thanatos. I keep forgetting that you play nidzilla, so these changes to the assault cannon affect you differently that the rest of us. Try to think of how the assault cannon changed against other armies. Did it get weaker against eldar? No. Did it get weaker against orks? No. did it get weaker against other marines? No.

I believe you are still going to see space marine assault cannon armies played in the tournament setting. The assault cannon is still the best "take all comers" weapon in the space marine list, 5th ed didn't change that. And the ability to take on anyone is what you want in a tournament.

What I do think will change is how assault cannons are taken. I think you will see a shift from terminators carrying assault cannons to transports carrying assault cannons. Think about it, a terminator squad with assault cannon is what, about 250 points? 300 for 2 assault cannons? But a 5 man tact squad with a lascannon is less than 90 points. Throw a razorback with assault cannon with them (let's say that razorback is about 100 points) and you're still under 200 points. And with how hard it is to kill vehicles plus twin-linking there is no reason not to switch to razorbacks.