Vanguard Onslaught at 2k

[ausnid]

Ok, looking for a competetive 2k Vanguard onslaught list, access to models is not an issue, and this is where I am at so far: 

Death Leaper
Winged Prime (neuronode)
Winged Prime (hunting grounds)
Winged Tyrant

Neurolictor x 3
Lictor
Melee Warriors x 6
Melee Warriors x 6
10 Gargoyles x 3


Exocrine
Exocrine
Biovore
Solo Rippers x 3
Barbgaunts x 5
Pyrovore
Zoanthropes x 6

I'm assuming Will of the The Hive Mind works with the surprise assault strat. Am looking to lean into the vanguard shenanigans, while still having some shooting so the opponent cannot just flat out ignore sight lines at deployment. 

Picks I'm least sure on are whether I need 3 x solo rippers or whether 1 or 2 will do, which maybe frees up points to give the flyrant the chameleonic enhancement (though I'm hoping he doesnt get too shot anyway). Not sure if the Lictor is overkill on the loan ops front (would be looking to rapid ingress him for a bit of targeted pressure with a bit more melee oomph than what a neuro provides). And the barbgaunts are there as surely slowing infantry down complements what the list is trying to do? 

Will obviously be informed by test games, but does anything stick out immediately? 

Cheers!

[piersonsmuppet]

Most tournaments are not allowing WotHM to affect Surprise assault, you’ll have to clarify that. I’d put Chameleonic on the Tyrant, Unseen Lurkers is going to be used on the Warriors a lot. Exo are, meh in Vanguard since they have nothing that bumps output.

[ausnid]

Yeah I’ll be checking the ruling on wothm before finalising the list, and if it’s a no go then I think the flyrant comes out sadly. I find exos are one of our most efficient damage dealers at range (admittedly not saying much), and while vanguard doesn’t threaten damage in general, I plan on having a neurolictor loitering around to dash out and provide a +1 to wound in 12” in the event there’s a failed battleshock on a viable target.

Lurkers will indeed get a work out, I’m also contemplating even starting one of the warrior units in strat reserve (depending on the amount of indirect opp has)…

[ausnid]

Okay, after a couple of play tests - comfortable win against Orks, and then a loss against DG, have tweaked to:

Death Leaper
Winged Prime (neuronode)
Winged Prime (hunting grounds)
Winged Tyrant (chameleonic)

Neurolictor x 3
Lictor
Melee Warriors x 6
Melee Warriors x 6
10 Gargoyles x 3

Exocrine
Exocrine
Biovore
Solo Rippers x 2
Barbgaunts x 5
Pyrovore
Zoanthropes x 3
Zoanthropes x 3

Ork win was based on a gargoyle conga line that held up his WAAGH turn rush, before a surgical clap back had him tabled but for one unit of gretchen at games end. I got my target priority wrong in the DG match up and bounced shooting hard off some PBCs. I'd love to find a way to get the neurotyrant in for more SiTW shenanigans (Battleshock is key to get me the +1s to wound), but cant see what I could drop....I wish the flyrant wasnt so expensive for what he brings stat wise, but after confirming the event I'm going through will allow Surprise Assault as a 0 CP strat he is key...

[piersonsmuppet]

Nice to hear the event is allowing Surprise Assault, the rulings clipping strats that additionally target an enemy unit are silly imo. For the Neurotyrant, 10 Gargs and the Pyro would net you the pts but will need tighter play with the gargs... not sure if it's worth it. Could trade an Exo for it as well, but I think that hurts the list more with the low amount of Zoans.

[ausnid]

Yeah, the pyro i could live without, but do like the 3 waves of gargs, and the skinny damage capacity becomes anaemic with dropping an exo... 

[No One]

What about the lictor+pyro (+ripper?): with DL+3 neurolictors I don't think you really get much out of the 5th, though it's possible I'm underestimating the direct usefulness in vanguard. But especially with 3 neurolictors SitW+neurotyrant becomes almost a secondary scam wincon.

Or the barbgaunts: not something I've really done much with for how reliably you're getting value on useful units though.

[ausnid]

Hmmmmm, deathleaper goes okay in combat but the neurolictors don’t want to be there, the lictor just gives a counter charge threat. But maybe I’ll try that swap out. The barbs have been okay, have been used to clear infantry screens but making the changes you suggest leaves me with an extra 15 points which would allow me to trade them for some von ryans, which may also all for screen reduction with a little bit more forward pressure capability…

[ausnid]

Ok so the neurotytrant has come in for the lictor, pyro and a ripper. But now I’m in that weird spot 10th puts you in that I’m 15 points short, and can’t take another enhancement. So, as I see it, options are:
1) keep it as is, which is effectively keeping in the 5 barbgaunts over the below options
2) drop barbgaunts and add in min 3 raveners. I think this would be the option if they had the vanguard key word but alas. Still, 21 s5 -1, 1 twinlinked and hitting on 3+ ain’t nothing…the pop into reserves is nice too (but they are paper thin
3) drop barbgaunts and add min 3 von Ryans. Benefits from the vanguard key word, infiltrates for forward pressure but not overwhelming as they be by their own basically. A little less punch, and a little more survivable than the raveners
4) drop barbies and add in either two single pyros, or a pyro and unit of neuro gaunts. Both these options are basically going for objective monkeys/screening bodies, with the pyros having a little offence and a bit tankier.

I’m kinda torn as the job of the barbs in the list is some light infantry control and movement reduction, but not sure I need it. What are folks experiences with some of the other options listed?

[piersonsmuppet]

I think VRL for T1 move-blocking is the most compelling option. Deploy them 9” from the enemy deployment and kill a movement lane if you win the rolloff, pull them back if you lose the rolloff.

If you don’t want/need that option, 2x Pyro is prob better than 1x Barb.

[ausnid]

So, ended up dropping the barbs and squeezing in the von ryans. Went 2-1 on the day: 

Game 1 v Orks - Ghaz and retinue, Mozrog, two cannons, three trukks filled with boyz/beastsnaggers/nobza, couple of storm boy squads, 6 squig riders and a few gretchin squads. Comfortable win, opponent didnt deploy conservatively, and I went first. Von Ryans munched some gretchin and tied up one of his guns (hit like wet noodles so didnt kill it though), while I was able to pop a truck and kill basically all the nobz inside. Gargoyles did move blocking things so I got another turn of shooting before they were on me which was enough to drop Mozrog, and some change. Took out the squighog riders eventually (though they were suprisingly tough and basically took down one unit of warriors in return). Cleaned up the beastsnagger boys and regular boyz. He had reserved Ghaz for some reason so he ended up stuck on one side, and when time was called he was the only real threat on the table, with a comfortable lead in hand. 

Game 2 v Death Guard - fights first plague marines, nurglings, predator, rhinos, PBCs, Typhus, 3 units of death shroud. Pretty big loss. Went second, drew terrible secondaries early and didnt really have an answer for fights first infantry and the hulls (rolling terribly didnt help (one turn didnt get a single wound through on a rhino chassis!). We also both forgot about some nurglings hidden behind a wall which effectively meant when I did get a charge in with my warriors on a reasonable target they were hitting on 5s before any buffs. The mission also wasn't great for the match up as you had to create an objective and stay on it to get primary. Called it at T4 with no real way to bridge the scoring gap and running low on resources.

Game 3 v GK - multipe strike marines, two dreadknights, two terminator squads inc Draigo, paladins, Crowe, and a box dread. Another comfortable win, with the match up in my favour as although he had plenty of teleporting shenanigans I was able to pick the fights I wanted and blast away at anything he got too aggressive with. My neurolictors rolled pretty hot with their saves which meant they ended up holding up some of this squads for longer than they should have, allowing me to be one step ahead positionally. With so much redeploying and reactive movement we again didnt play to term, but when time expired I was up 20 VP and he didnt have a lot of options for stopping me scoring, while making up the difference. 

Overall, the list was fun to play but definitely feels light on in terms of damage (particularly into tough targets), or being able to take a punch in return. Warriors were good, but I think I may sub out the flyrant and tweak to try to get a unit of GS with broodlord in for a different punching option - the access to the free strat was okay, but I'm not sure its worth the current points cost. 

[gauntlet]

Ever thought of swapping out one unit of Warriors+Prime?

Are Broodlord and Genestealers a well worth compromise half way between Von Ryan's Leapers and Warriors.

They have a long charge range in Vanguard Onslaught attachment, fallback and charge, giving them pseudo Fights First.

How do they compare in resilience to Von Ryan's Leaper.
How does their damage output vs points cost compare to Warriors+Prime.

They are Vanguard Invader, so make good use of Invisible Hunter and Hypersensory Scillia to really mess with opponents plans. You don't have to spend the CP, just the threat of their use will deter the opponents plans.

At a push you can, have the Broodlords to run alone, to increase number of units.

They don't have the resilience of Warriors but are faster and duck and ambush better.

[piersonsmuppet]

I’ve found the GS generally more impactful than the Warriors. The extra speed and Dev Wounds tips the balance imo. Warriors are good for hitting a target with +1 to-wound, but sometimes it just doesn’t happen when/where it’s needed.

[vejby]

The flyrant really suffers from lack of offense. I constantly debate if including either variant is worth it for the  free strats or if the extra CP from swarmlord is better in spite of the increased cost. All three are border line too expensive unless you have a plan and I might just switch to winged tyranid primes as enhancement caddies in my next lists to bring in an extra maleceptor.