Would you ever consider not having a Hive Tyrant in list?

[gauntlet]

I fear missing out of the gift CP and a good Enhancement and lack of Characters in my lists. Are at least one of the 3 types of Hive Tyrant a must include?

[dkng]

Assimilation Swarm can do without one.
Mediocre Enhancements, only one (and a bad one) Battle Tactic stratagem. There is one that is very strong for 2 CP so maybe a Swarmlord can be useful but investing 270 points to use a single strat a couple of times may be a poor choice.
The best thing about the Walkrant that everybody is taking is the Assault aura. Zoanthropes, Maleceptors and Pyrovores love it.

[piersonsmuppet]

Absolutely. I pretty much take a Tyrant and SL in every list, overwhelming stratagem use has been a big deciding factor in my games this edition. That said, it depends on how many strats you plan to use. Even one of them can be overkill if you don’t use CP often.

[gauntlet]

The Warriors Venom Cannon is approximately half as deadly at killing Space Marines as the Hive Tyrant Heavy Venom Cannon.

So Three Warriors (210 pts) with Venom Cannon is about 50% better than the Hive Tyrant (235pts).
I don't think I would take the Hive Tyrant if I was not forced to have a character for the Warlord.

As a replacement Warlord, either the Winged Tyranid Prime or Parasite of Mortrex is a tax I find difficult to stomach. EDIT: NeuroTyrant not so bad.

What do you think about a list without Hive Tyrant?

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Ranged warriors are too slow on their own with only a 6" move and no assault on their weapons. I personally think that we need a tyrant for mobility at this point.

Warriors are also in a weird spot as everything is ok at damaging them so there's almost no wasted shots if you shoot them.

[gauntlet]

Oct 4, 2023 15:54:07 GMT hivefleetkerrigan said:

Ranged warriors are too slow on their own with only a 6" move and no assault on their weapons. I personally think that we need a tyrant for mobility at this point.

Warriors are also in a weird spot as everything is ok at damaging them so there's almost no wasted shots if you shoot them.

What's is the practicality of all your units being crowded into the Hive Tyrant Onslaught aura?
Parhaps a couple of unit of Zoanthropes and Maleceptors at most?

I feel Ranged Warriors are very badly situated in the centre of the battlefield.
Warriors have good 36" range so they don't need to move. Just stick a unit of Ranged Warriors on each far flank, slowly creeping towards the opponents deployment zone. They can contribute to the concentrated fire on the central battle, even against vehicles, whilst screening the flanks against reserves. Good range and the quantity of shots from Barbeed Strangler also means they can shoot cheap throwaways scoring units.

The question is, does the board coverage and far superior firepower of 9xWarriors, make up for what else the Hive Tyrant brings to the party.

I did solve my character tax, Warlord problem, as a forgot I have a Broodlord.
Lack of Synapse on Broodlord is a recurring frustration, which ever way I twist a list, especially Synapse Nexus.

[piersonsmuppet]

If part of your plan is to spam a Battle Tactic, they are great takes. Considering most of the top performing Nid lists in GT+ have a Tyrant, they are a solid take. However, you have to be using the free strat to really make them worth it. If you don’t play around it or forget to use it, yes you are better off using a cheaper character. SL still has some use in multiplying you ability to use non-battle tactic strats more often, but the higher pts cost demands even better use of the added resources than plain Tyrants.

If you need a character for a tax, just take PoM. LO and Deepstrike means it will affect scoring by just existing. I think it is hard to pass on the Neurotyrant though, since it increases the likelihood that SitW warps scoring in your favor.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

For me, I dot think I can get all of my army within range of a tyrant. However, the tyrant allows my list to advance up the board faster, which is necessary to get to objectives early. I'm currently playing assimilation swarm, so I want to have 2x6 zoans and maybe a psychophage or a unit or two of pyrovores in the tyrants range. A 6" aura is a decent size. As a note, I'm using an older metal tyrant and it's on a 50mm and I can still get a lot within range. (Taking a smaller based tyrant as my larger one isn't painted)

For the warriors, I'd run a warrior list prior and I found that it was too slow to contest objectives. By the time I could feasibly get to an objective, my warriors would be dead. Warriors can be good into elites, but will not have enough shots against hordes and lack the strength/AP/damage against vehicles.

From what I'm finding, I'm currently much better off taking a tyrant and tyrant guard. It synergizes better with moving up the board and allowing threats to get to where they need to be.

[No One]

hivefleetkerrigan said:

For me, I dot think I can get all of my army within range of a tyrant.

You absolutely don't want to, you lose way too much board presence. But you should be able to e.g. deploy almost everything in range (of free strat), and then have your aggressive midfield elements in that range (most of which should be able to stay in onslaught range as well) as you move up, which are the ones who most benefit from both auras.

[mattblowers]

Don't think one is mandatory any more. I find them decidedly 'meh' at the moment.

[gauntlet]

I am toying with not having a Hive Tyrant and using those 235pts on Ranged Warriors.
I have a Synapse Nexus list, core is 12 Zoanthropes, but notice it has 3 Melee Warriors and 6 Ranged Warriors. But also has 40 Termagants and 20 Hormagants.
I wonder if I use the exact same list, but use Unending Swarm what would happen?
Can a Winged Prime+Piercing Talons in amongst Ranged Warriors, 230pts, raise their killing power to Exocrine levels. It might depend on the Sustained+Piercing talons synergizing.
Can someone do the maths?

Without a Hive Tyrant my CP economy is weak. So I cannot make full use of the Synapse Nexus strats anyway. I feel the core of my army stands on it's own without strats.

With Unending Swarm, I would build up CP turns 1,2 and rely on spending the stored CP to trigger extra 600pts of Gaunts from Unending Waves, giving me the points advantage. Runs the risk of being targeted by Malign Presence.

Does anybody else feel, that having too many Endless Swarm Units in Unending Swarm detachment is a trap? My thoughts are that the key to Unending Swarm is having 80% of your non gaunt army being solid and not requiring strats. So that you can really focus your CP on making those few (20%) of Endless Swarm units into a very agrevating annoyance, especially with additional movement into engagement range. Not protecting gaunts at all, but really encouraging the enemy to kill those gaunt units or lose the objectives game. Then damned if they do, damned if they don't. Tervigons and FNP is anti-synergy, you really want to do absolutely nothing to protect those gaunts from dying. Maybe think of the 3 or 4 units of gaunts, exactly like you would a spore mine or a ripper swarm. They are not a real unit, their value is in where they come back on the board, not how long they last.

[yoritomo]

Do I ever consider not running tyrant? All the time.

It depends on how many monsters I’m running. If he’s going to be the only one then no, I will not take him. If I have two or three other monsters then I’ll find a way to include a tyrant.

I find there is a critical mass of monstrous creatures you need to take. If you have too few then he becomes a fire magnet for all your opponent’s anti tank weapons. After all, who wants to shoot their melta weapons at gaunts when there is a hive tyrant near by?

[gauntlet]

Wondering on where to spend my alternative Hive Tyrant Points.
Yikes! The exocrine is kills 7 marines per turn, whilst the next best Maleceptor kill 3.3.
I already have a glut of 3 Zoans, 3.6 marine kills.
6 Warriors shooting kills 4.5 marines.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I think it depends upon what else is in the list. What do you need for objectives?
What do you need for threat overload?