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Post by zimko on Feb 19, 2019 14:37:20 GMT
I keep saying this is going to be a big issue. I'm not sure that the 4AE +1" is enough to warrant it. Too many of the theory crafting so far is relying on 7" charges which is just too high a chance of failure for me. Actually I recall now that I had to charge thru woods so it was a 9" charge. But either way, you're right that we can't rely on it unless we want to spend 3 CP to move them d6 on arrival. That's why I'm not giving them saws. Losing 150 pts is easier to stomach than 190 or 230. At least at 150 they're still serving the purpose of protecting the Patriarch so he can do his Mental Onslaught thing.
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Post by No One on Feb 19, 2019 15:03:05 GMT
I keep saying this is going to be a big issue. I'm not sure that the 4AE +1" is enough to warrant it. Too many of the theory crafting so far is relying on 7" charges which is just too high a chance of failure for me. So far with the acos I've either gone for either a 7" with rerolls, or a perfect ambush (or they're small and I don't really care). And am at...I think 2 failures out of 13-15 attempts? And one of those was a vected perfect ambush (which turned out OK since most of them didn't die, and they were hanging out with patty to kill stuff with mental onslaught). It's a risk, but it's not a huge risk: as long as you don't do something like take max saws+hand flamer, it's not even that expensive (stock with iconward, they're about as durable per point as gaunts with no defensive buffs).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 19, 2019 17:02:45 GMT
All of my theoryhammering includes having a 7" rerollable, which I've failed many times already trying to cast Protect/Jinx/Quicken, and am very aware of how subsceptible to failure it can be. But, no big "kill unit" relies on the 7" charges, instead being a wide "catch-all" charge with 20 man Acolytes, or a bunch of 10 man squads, as that's actually OK-ish without being too painful to lose.
If you have a big kill unit that HAS to get stuck in, then you really need to Perfect Ambush it. So far, I think our codex reliance on no land grab, 7" charges (its what, 85% chance of success with the Broodsurge reroll? If you have 2 or 3 going off at once, it's definitely going to hit home) makes it hard to be mono, but I really admire them guys sticking it out.
Personally, I think our big ticket is Lying In Wait(?), popping up 3" away and wreaking havoc however we can. No other army can do this, and no other army can force people to either clump or really spread out... which is what Genestealers really want too. Which means, I think, either a big 20 man Acolyte flamer drop, or a Rusted Claw Demo Charge drop. I also think this is great because 20 Acolytes with flamers is kind of expendible but REALLY durable with Rusted Claw and common anti-infantry fire, AND it's really hard to clear 20 Acolytes and 20-40 Genestealers at the same time. The only thing is... Fearless, which they are not, sadly.
Essentially I think my GSC army will tend towards large Rusted Claw/Bladed Cog Acolyte and Neophyte use, depending on how many points goes into Nids, with the Patty ldship bomb for a big target, and character sniping to round it off. I dont see Abberrants being as good as I thought (but no doubt they ARE good - very well rounded survivability and damage), and the Abominant might feature just for his Mindwyrm more than his actual output. If we're talking tournament, a rerollable charge, at 7" in fact, is really good, BUT we arent Wyches, with a "stop you from falling back and shooting me" clause. The 3" strategem will be REALLY hard to deny for the enemy, either getting Vect (which you can counter-vect), or keeping them balled up and ripe pickings for charging and pretty much wiping the floor with.
Now, how much damage can we do to non chaff with 20 handflamers....
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Post by N.I.B. on Feb 19, 2019 22:17:51 GMT
Btw my first GSC game I played this
Deliverance Broodsurge battallion Patriarch, Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Augur of the Insurgent, Mental Onslaught Magus, Mass Hypnosis
20 Acolytes - 4 Heavy Rock Saw, Cult Icon 5 Acolytes 5 Acolytes
Clavamus Kelermorph
Anointed Throng battallion Abominant, Blessed Sledgehammer relic, Field Commander strat to give him Insidious Mindwyrm Primus
10 Neophytes 10 Neophytes 10 Neophytes
10 Aberrants - 6 picks, 3 hammers, Hypermorph with HIP
Kraken battallion Broodlord, The Horror Neurothrope, Catalyst
20 Genestealers 3 Ripper Swarm 3 Ripper Swarm
6 Hive Guards
1995pts 18CP (all gone turn 2)
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 20, 2019 6:58:36 GMT
Augur of the insurgent only choosqble by a Iconward. Its a Vigilus WLT like Insidious Mindwrym. Patty can't take it.
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Post by N.I.B. on Feb 20, 2019 8:39:19 GMT
Yup, made some army building errors in this first game.
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Post by sidedisc on Feb 20, 2019 8:48:36 GMT
Btw my first GSC game I played this Deliverance Broodsurge battallionPatriarch, Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Augur of the Insurgent, Mental Onslaught Magus, Mass Hypnosis 20 Acolytes - 4 Heavy Rock Saw, Cult Icon 5 Acolytes 5 Acolytes Clavamus Kelermorph Anointed Throng battallionAbominant, Blessed Sledgehammer relic, Field Commander strat to give him Insidious Mindwyrm Primus 10 Neophytes 10 Neophytes 10 Neophytes 10 Aberrants - 6 picks, 3 hammers, Hypermorph with HIP Kraken battallionBroodlord, The Horror Neurothrope, Catalyst 20 Genestealers 3 Ripper Swarm 3 Ripper Swarm 6 Hive Guards 1995pts 18CP (all gone turn 2) How did the game go?
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Post by N.I.B. on Feb 20, 2019 20:35:55 GMT
I faced a friends Space Wolves, bolter spam-ish with the new rules, so a bunch of bolter Primaris, 2 dreads, Björn the Fell-handed, Murderfang, Wulfen in a Flyer, Aggressors, Landraider, repair character.
Took ages to play, I was nose down in the books. Forgot to shoot with Hive Guards, forgot to shoot with Kelermorph, forgot about SW 6" Heroic Intervention. That was bad, since I charged Björn + Landraider with my Acolytes, only to be Interventioned by the repair dude who was packing the 'you fight last' item, so I lost too many Acolytes before they could kick the poo out of Björn. They killed him in the next round but paid with their lives.
Abominant and Aberrants made short work out of a that big Dreadnought that came in the Tooth and Claw box. Then they turned around and got a unit of Primaris. Abominant caught the repair dude and smashed him.
Acolytes, Rippers and Neophytes died like crazy, if they were visible they were gone.
Patriarch assaulted the Aggressors, I didn't know they were so good in combat, they payed 2CP and put 5 wounds on him before he wiped them in return. Then he died to bolters in the next round.
I cast The Horror on Björn, wanted to try out Mental Onslaught. Failed to cast cast Mental Onslaught. CP reroll, passed on '6'. But denied...
Big story was that I failed to kill his Flyer in my deployment zone, which meant he could unload the Wulfen and go to town, killed Hive Guards and set up for a big turn 3, but we had to call the game there.
I had more points but was quickly losing my units and would've lost if we'd gone the distance. Made too many mistakes. MVPs were Genestealers, pulled off a 27” move/advance/charge to catch some very surprised Primaris marines hanging out on the upper level of a ruin in his deployment zone.
I burned 17/18 CP before the third turn, this faction just gobbles them down.
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Post by zimko on Feb 21, 2019 18:42:07 GMT
I think I've figured out how to cram in a 3rd battalion with the Tyranid/GSC list I posted earlier from the tournament. Basically I'm dropping the Hive Guard and Hormagaunts to add Alphus, Primus, 30 Neophytes and 2 units of 4 Jackals with demo charges.
Hive Guard have become a liability. They take up precious space for hiding genestealers. They are subject to -1 to hit (which is everywhere) and high saves or invul saves. They must be protected by screens. And they need synapse on hand or are -1 to hit almost anything because they're out of LOS. And they hog CP to shoot twice. So dropping them for more bodies and CP seems reasonable. And the Jackal demo charges can help make up for the lack of tank killing power.
So now my list is: Kraken Bat -1 CP relic Swarmlord Flyrant (4 devourers and Chameleonic Mutation) 20 genestealers 18 genestealers 3 rippers 3 venomthropes
4Armed Bat -1 CP broodsurge -1 CP broodcoven Patriarch (+1 ld trait and Crouchling and 2 familiars) Primus (+1 d3 trait from broodcoven) 20 Acolytes (icon) 5 Acolytes 5 Acolytes Clamavus
Rusted Claws Bat -1 CP Broodsurge -1 CP relic Acolyte Iconward (relic Vial of the Grandsire's Blood) Jackal Alphus 10 Neophytes 10 Neophytes 10 Neophytes Kelermorph 4 Jackals (demo charges and shotguns) 4 Jackals (demo charges and shotguns)
13 +1d3 CP.
All the neophytes and jackals start with blip markers. In cover, the neophytes and Jackals have a 3+ save vs AP 0 and 1. Genestealers, Swarmlord and Venomthropes hide best they can. Flyrant will usually deep strike, depending on matchup. All the acolytes (except 1 squad, need them on the board to use the 4armed strat), and characters (except alphus) start in deep strike. The +1 Leadership relic from Iconward does not say the Patriach needs to be in the same cult, so the patriarch still has 13 leadership. Now a Primus can buff the Acolytes though for 2+ to hit and rerolling 1s to wound. Also, if I choose to take the Iconward's broodsurge warlord trait, that also doesn't require the Acolytes to be in the same cult to get rerolls to charge. So they have a 7" charge with reroll, 2+ to hit rerolling 1s, +1 to wound with the broodsurge strat and rerolling 1s from the Primus.
The Jackals are a flyer deterant with a 14" move and +1 to hit from the Alphus. Their grenades give them 4d6 shots, 3+ to hit a flyer with the two grenade strats, 2+ to wound a T7 or worse flyer, AP 3 and d3 damage. Not bad for 2 CP and 60 points. Oh and they can move after doing this.
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Post by justanotherhivemind on Feb 21, 2019 21:59:16 GMT
This combo is brutal if it doesn't get faq'd.
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Post by No One on Feb 22, 2019 13:14:51 GMT
So far, I've found this to be incredibly powerful in some shape or form: not for the absolute potential of 'oh boy, I can 1 shot a knight!'. It gives, essentially, a very strong "shooting" option: it has the advantage of reach over melee, to say nothing of the different phasing. When you consider that it's also Character protected...it's a very potent tool.
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Post by N.I.B. on Feb 22, 2019 14:28:18 GMT
zimko how do you get +3 Ld on your Patriarch? His own warlord trait + Vial of the Grandsire's Blood, and... ?
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Post by No One on Feb 22, 2019 14:29:33 GMT
Clamavus gives +1 ld as well.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 22, 2019 14:43:42 GMT
So far, I've found this to be incredibly powerful in some shape or form: not for the absolute potential of 'oh boy, I can 1 shot a knight!'. It gives, essentially, a very strong "shooting" option: it has the advantage of reach over melee, to say nothing of the different phasing. When you consider that it's also Character protected...it's a very potent tool. Agreed. It's a good character sniping option. You have to work to set it up, but you can use it to shutdown dangerous threats.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 22, 2019 16:24:37 GMT
How do you bypass character protection? Or did you mean the Mental Onslaught?
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