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Post by No One on Feb 5, 2019 1:17:52 GMT
Alright, another troll combo, now with added "You want to be THAT GUY", OVER 9000 pitchforks guaranteed: 1. take a Patriarch and give him the the "Mental Onslaught" power (6+, 18" range, caster and target roll 1d6 + Ld, caster wins = 1MW, roll again until target dead or target ties/wins the roll) 2. give him the the WL trait "Inspiring Leader" for +1 Ld 3. position a Clamavus within 6" for another +1 Ld, making your minimum roll on Mental Onslaught a 13 4. take a BB Astropath and give him the "Terrifying Visions" power (7+, 18" range, target gets -2 Ld) 5. congratulations, if both powers got cast successfully, you now deal unlimited damage to Ld8 targets, and insane amounts of damage to Ld9 targets (opponent can only beat you if you roll a 1 and he rolls a 6 on the same roll, so reroll your first 1 to even deny him the opportunity for a 6 and you should be good to go) The issue is...it's a WC 7 power on a 6" move unit (though you can actually move move move it, because GW ). And a WC 6 power. And a WL trait that does nothing else. And a 6" bubble that can't really keep up with your 8"+advance and charge melee murder machine. That said, it's very powerful when you can use it in the right situation (I managed to delete a hellhound (ld 7) with just the WL trait: no hoops, just WC 6, roll lucky and kill a unit. But I never successfully casted in range of the clamavus, never managed to cast horror+onslaught successfully on the same target etc.) It's just basically useless outside of that: give it to a magus? Welp, probably doing nothing every turn. Only have the WL trait or clamavus? After cast, you're looking at ~1 wound on average to ld 9: beaten by psionic blast, which does 1 MW at WC 5, with a no downside chance for D3. It's really not. Native ld 6 exists on things that are good targets for MW spam e.g. Ork flyers, exocrine. And even no buffs/negs, that's potentially incredibly damaging from ld 10. (Or nothing because you failed to cast ). The issue is that it's uncapped, which allows for high ld imbalances to pile on the MW. Of course, it's outright bad when there isn't a reasonable ld imbalance (3 higher to make it worth over psionic blast, which is still often worse than just smite), so the ld shenanigans are heavily encouraged (as is the case with...basically every ld based power/ability: usually next to useless on base ld). Personally, my solution would be to remove the uncapped nature (either by giving a +1 each failed roll off, or just a flat, say, 3-5 damage max) and then dropping the WC to 5. Because currently? It's probably one of the swingiest power in the game, along with mind control (which suffers from similar issues: hard to get off, only worth it on certain targets, but get it off on certain targets and you can do massive damage). It's honestly a great way for GSC to melt tanks, most have low leadership and nobody ever thinks about putting Ld buff characters by tanks so this is a sneaky way to hurt a unit that typically is hard for us to kill. Flyers. We've got reliable ways to hurt tanks in cc. But essentially nothing to deal with Flyers. Initial look at Atalans says they're bad, since they get this melee weapon that's pointless, have autopistols stock, and no guns on the bike. That's the wolfquad: jackals get different options. Pretty sure he was looking at wolfquad generic options (which are garbage), not the normal bike options (which are elsewhere and decent). Based on what he was saying, he was talking about them pistoling stuff and 1 cc attack, which is bad. Give them double shotguns, double autoguns or double cultist knives (or, if you can't double, 2 of those three: not sure on specifics) for 3 attacks etc and they start to have some decent output for 10 pts each.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 5, 2019 2:36:44 GMT
If you're right and they can double shotgun, I am GAME for full Atalan army!
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Post by No One on Feb 5, 2019 2:39:15 GMT
Yeah, I'm not sure on that: they can take two from the list, and the list includes shotguns, but I haven't seen it myself to see if there's any additional restrictions ala HVC/Stranglethorn (or worded in such a way that you can only take one of each from the list). Would be a pretty cool army if you could though.
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Post by killercroc on Feb 5, 2019 2:48:15 GMT
Yeah the list said you cannot take the same option twice. So you can take a pistol and a shotgun but not two shotguns. Shame cause dual shotgun bikers could be a lot of fun.
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Post by No One on Feb 5, 2019 2:51:25 GMT
Shotgun/autogun though? (Also, pistols come stock I'm pretty sure.)
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Post by arsonfire on Feb 5, 2019 3:02:30 GMT
Shotgun/autogun though? (Also, pistols come stock I'm pretty sure.) Only the squad leader can take an autogun.
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Post by killercroc on Feb 5, 2019 3:02:53 GMT
Shotgun/autogun though? (Also, pistols come stock I'm pretty sure.) Only the leader can take an Autogun. I have not idea WHY only the leader can take an autogun but maybe GW just didn't want them sitting in cover with autoguns/stubbers being sort of like heavy troops or something? I haven't seen all the options on the list but I'm sure it's Shotgun, Auto pistol, Combat weapon, power hammer, demo charges and 1 in 4 can take a grenade launcher. Since they must take 2 weapons and cannot take the same weapon twice from the list your options are dual pistols and combat weapon, or shotgun, pistol and combat weapon. Like it gives you options but limits them idk why they just didn't make their wargear: "Shotgun, Auto pistol, CCW" So I think that bit in the community page about them being long range fire support was inaccurate cause the only long range you get is 1/4 grenade launchers and heavy stub on the quad which you can just do with neophytes *shrugs*
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Post by No One on Feb 5, 2019 3:05:15 GMT
Drat
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 5, 2019 3:41:18 GMT
Yeaaaa..... Well at least it isn't just autpistol and fists anymore. Not sure if they're still in there. I'll wait for No One to do the math on them compared to Neophytes =P
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Post by syrcle on Feb 5, 2019 8:17:44 GMT
Alright, another troll combo, now with added "You want to be THAT GUY", OVER 9000 pitchforks guaranteed: 1. take a Patriarch and give him the the "Mental Onslaught" power (6+, 18" range, caster and target roll 1d6 + Ld, caster wins = 1MW, roll again until target dead or target ties/wins the roll) 2. give him the the WL trait "Inspiring Leader" for +1 Ld 3. position a Clamavus within 6" for another +1 Ld, making your minimum roll on Mental Onslaught a 13 4. take a BB Astropath and give him the "Terrifying Visions" power (7+, 18" range, target gets -2 Ld) 5. congratulations, if both powers got cast successfully, you now deal unlimited damage to Ld8 targets, and insane amounts of damage to Ld9 targets (opponent can only beat you if you roll a 1 and he rolls a 6 on the same roll, so reroll your first 1 to even deny him the opportunity for a 6 and you should be good to go) The issue is...it's a WC 7 power on a 6" move unit (though you can actually move move move it, because GW ). And a WC 6 power. And a WL trait that does nothing else. And a 6" bubble that can't really keep up with your 8"+advance and charge melee murder machine. That said, it's very powerful when you can use it in the right situation (I managed to delete a hellhound (ld 7) with just the WL trait: no hoops, just WC 6, roll lucky and kill a unit. But I never successfully casted in range of the clamavus, never managed to cast horror+onslaught successfully on the same target etc.) It's just basically useless outside of that: give it to a magus? Welp, probably doing nothing every turn. Only have the WL trait or clamavus? After cast, you're looking at ~1 wound on average to ld 9: beaten by psionic blast, which does 1 MW at WC 5, with a no downside chance for D3. It's really not. Native ld 6 exists on things that are good targets for MW spam e.g. Ork flyers, exocrine. And even no buffs/negs, that's potentially incredibly damaging from ld 10. (Or nothing because you failed to cast ). The issue is that it's uncapped, which allows for high ld imbalances to pile on the MW. Of course, it's outright bad when there isn't a reasonable ld imbalance (3 higher to make it worth over psionic blast, which is still often worse than just smite), so the ld shenanigans are heavily encouraged (as is the case with...basically every ld based power/ability: usually next to useless on base ld). Personally, my solution would be to remove the uncapped nature (either by giving a +1 each failed roll off, or just a flat, say, 3-5 damage max) and then dropping the WC to 5. Because currently? It's probably one of the swingiest power in the game, along with mind control (which suffers from similar issues: hard to get off, only worth it on certain targets, but get it off on certain targets and you can do massive damage). It's honestly a great way for GSC to melt tanks, most have low leadership and nobody ever thinks about putting Ld buff characters by tanks so this is a sneaky way to hurt a unit that typically is hard for us to kill. Flyers. We've got reliable ways to hurt tanks in cc. But essentially nothing to deal with Flyers. Initial look at Atalans says they're bad, since they get this melee weapon that's pointless, have autopistols stock, and no guns on the bike. That's the wolfquad: jackals get different options. Pretty sure he was looking at wolfquad generic options (which are garbage), not the normal bike options (which are elsewhere and decent). Based on what he was saying, he was talking about them pistoling stuff and 1 cc attack, which is bad. Give them double shotguns, double autoguns or double cultist knives (or, if you can't double, 2 of those three: not sure on specifics) for 3 attacks etc and they start to have some decent output for 10 pts each. Man, if I have a combo like this I run more than a Clamavus and one will work only for that. I never want my general in combat, never, anointeg abominant exist already for that. Patriarch should give fearless bubble AND, possibly, insta-kill low Ld. It's the ruin of plaguebearers (ld7) and with some luck&buff, ld9 also will die easily. Why don't you want that ace upon your sleeve? You must not use it always if it isn't necesssary however, but for so few points having this possibility is huge. When he doesn't one-shot a knight... well, some MW is done already for sure. We have 1700+ points to finish his work
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Post by No One on Feb 5, 2019 8:57:40 GMT
Man, if I have a combo like this I run more than a Clamavus and one will work only for that. I never want my general in combat, never, anointeg abominant exist already for that. Patriarch should give fearless bubble AND, possibly, insta-kill low Ld. If you never want your general in combat, don't take a patriarch. I mean, it's a compulsory combat WL. It's going to do a lot more damage in combat into most targets, especially with +1 A/S (seriously, 9 wounds into T7 3+). Fearless is good...130 pts good? That's basically another full squad. At ld 8, possible rerolls with iconward, how many are you expecting to lose to morale? Also clamavus is a very important buff unit and including extra Cult Characters isn't exactly trivial: I wouldn't be surprised if 2 were wanted to buff charges, and then you can't have 3 if you want to include nids. Not only being able to kill a single model it's not. See, you're using 'luck' and 'easily' in the same sentence. If it requires luck and more moving parts (which killing ld 9 does: guaranteed buffs are not enough for even 50% odds) it's not easy. I agree that having the possibility is huge: I'm currently running the +1 ld WL where applicable (I'll choose something else when it's not e.g. crons, most nid builds), you want a clamavus anyway, and the patriarch usually wants to be nearby anyway, to give fearless and get +1 charge. But to consider losing a det slot for visions? Not unless you've got a good plan for IG. At which point, why not splash for a ~20 pt psyker if you've got the slot I guess? Basically, temper expectations. Consider going for more ld effects in game: but don't work back yourself into a corner trying to do so. It's not that good (NB: the effect can be into some targets, but remember it's not auto cast). With a ld buff or two, it's usually at worst a WC 6 targeted smite: which is pretty good, no question. But not 'build your army around it' good. (While auto casting with a 6 pt ld gap, it probably would be into single model armies). Definitely not 'for sure' at WC 6 with denials (because who'd not take ~20 pt astropaths?) Unless you took crouchling/spend CP (which, might and hyp are things and are usually going to shut a knight down harder), you have ~30% chance to just fail the cast outright. Some % for deny. ~20% to lose even just the first roll off with +2 extra ld advantage (i.e. max without further lowering odds e.g. horror).
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Post by syrcle on Feb 5, 2019 10:40:34 GMT
Nevermind, I thought it works on units, no single models. No more killing hordes with that for me T_T . However a fearless bubble isn't good, it's strong. Sure not as in a tyr list cause isn't spammable, but it's always a pain for opponents being forced to kill every model on that objective.
I want my codex now T_T
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Post by purestrain on Feb 5, 2019 10:52:18 GMT
You kill the characters with your character hunters then go to work.
The assassin sniper seems very fit to end an AM psycher easily
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Post by syrcle on Feb 5, 2019 11:26:30 GMT
Sniping psyker apart, not every army can deny it. I'm thinking to cast it on a riptide. A patriarch with clam buff and WL is 12, riptide start with 8. -4 assuming we aren't casting the other 2 powers on him and the locus is far away (rumors I red give him an ability to decrease Ld by 1, but not having the codex yet can make me being wrong again). Shield drones are a thing, sure, but even if it doesn't work on units as I thounght, can be deadly. I see your point! Not building list too much around, but I'll try it for sure at least.
Have someone already done some math over acolytes bomb dmg output with flamer and in combat?
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Post by acehilator on Feb 5, 2019 12:05:35 GMT
No One You are taking things way too seriously there... if it was a competitive choice, I wouldn't have labeled it a "troll" combo y/k. Also disagree on throwing the Patriach into melee asap just because he is expensive. There are going to be enough list variants running Rusted Claw or Bladed Cog with lots of properly equipped Neophytes etc. where the fearless aura would be amazing, especially with the Alien Majesty WL trait (+3" aura size). Regarding Atalan Jackals, optimal loadout would be Shotgun + Cultist Knife to compliment the base Autopistol + Blasting Charges and remain at zero points. Not sure about Grenade Launchers, I think they are too expensive at 5 points, with their speed you are always firing shotguns at S4 anyways. 5 Demo charges for the lolz if you are light on AT weapons otherwise. Not sure about the weapon on the Wolfquads, though. Atalan Incinerator is nice, but not cheap at 14 points, or could just run them with the stock Heavy Stubber for cheap extra wounds. I don't think the Heavy Mining Laser meshes well with the rest of the unit, at least a full sized one geared for chaff clearing.
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