Let's talk Harpies: are they better after CA?

[dakkafex]

The other day I was playing a friend and we were proxying a bunch. I decided to try out an Air Wing with 3 Harpies alongside the common stuff (Swarmlord, couple of Flyrants, Stealers and Rippers, 6 Hive Guard) and, well, they were very annoying to my opponent, but nothing spectacular.

Let's start with the pro's:
-the Heavy Venom Cannon can be pretty effective
-the Shriek basically allows all units in your army to fight first even of they didn't all charge (with Kraken, this means not taking Overwatch on the one Enemy unit that somehow survived or wanted to trap your Genestealers)
-spore mines are always useful
-high mobility is key in the new missions, and they can reliably first turn charge without any stratagems or support being employed on them (and can tag things like Helvetians, for example)

Con's:
-at 149 points with HVC, they are not that cheap, but not expensive either
-they are not good in combat
-BS 4+ (and degrading) is not a good thing with "only" 2D3 shots
-T6 12W 4+ means they are not going far unless your opponent allows them too (which they usually do, considering the other threats on the table)

What is your opinion on them? Are they better? Can they be useful even in competitive play?
Let me know what you think.

Edit: I wrote 4D3 instead of 2D3, as hivefleetkaiju correctly pointed out, now it's fixed

[remington]

Both our (non flyer) flyers are not competitive nor great in comparison to other factions flyers. Can you play with them in narrative games and/or just for the kick of it, yes.
No, they are not better even with point drops.
No, they can't be used in competitive mind. Alas, prove me wrong.

[Hive Bahamut]

Our Flyers make Taus look baller.

None of the pros to being in a flyer slot with all the usual cons.

They really need -1 to hit, 3+ or T7. As is too little damage, not enough anything really.

[hivefleetkaiju]

Jan 21, 2019 8:05:24 GMT dakkafex said:

BS 4+ (and degrading) is not a good thing with "only" 4D3 shots
-T6 12W 4+ means they are not going far unless your opponent allows them too (which they usually do, considering the other threats on the table)

What is your opinion on them? Are they better? Can they be useful even in competitive play?
Let me know what you think.

where did you get 4d3 shots from two hvc?
you only get 2d3

[hivefleetkaiju]

Jan 21, 2019 12:20:42 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

Our Flyers make Taus look baller.

None of the pros to being in a flyer slot with all the usual cons.

They really need -1 to hit, 3+ or T7. As is too little damage, not enough anything really.

or give them 4++ to mimic the old jink save

[remington]

Jan 21, 2019 14:12:32 GMT hivefleetkaiju said:

Jan 21, 2019 12:20:42 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

Our Flyers make Taus look baller.

None of the pros to being in a flyer slot with all the usual cons.

They really need -1 to hit, 3+ or T7. As is too little damage, not enough anything really.

or give them 4++ to mimic the old jink save

Not enough. They really need be at least marine equilevant, so -1 to hit 'cause they should be flyers, 3+ almost everybody else has it and T7 cause they need to be more tankier (and effectively they are more bulkier than eldar variants). And their guns/options need more ooomph naturally.

Plus, being out synapse range needs to be addressed as well. If not getting any buffs, they need to be dirt cheap compared to other factions flyers. 

One of them should be a legit AA monster and the other needs to be a cas monster. Their battlerole needs full redo.
Let's take a hive crone for example. If he is keeping his 4+ ws, then he needs +1 to hit on a charge (maybe a army wide rule?) and +1A. Stinger salvo needs more dakka. Drool cannon needs more dakka and/or strength (and more range or pistol rule). The roachpedoes needs more strength (and a stratagem).

Harpy needs more cc power and burnabomber styled sporelauncher. Guns are ok, but he needs +1 to hit on ground targets.

After this, they should be pretty playable. And the cost to both units, should be what it is even with these buffs (mainly 'cause synapse shenanigans). 

[No One]

remington said:

Not enough. They really need be at least marine equilevant, so -1 to hit 'cause they should be flyers, 3+ almost everybody else has it and T7 cause they need to be more tankier (and effectively they are more bulkier than eldar variants). And their guns/options need more ooomph naturally.

No. As the harpy is, it should not just get all the survivability buffs of all the other flyers. Why? We can charge, they can't. And the ability to charge on a 30" Fly unit is pretty good. It should have some counter balance. However, what role does the harpy want to serve? Gun boat. What role does the crone want to serve? Charger. Why does the harpy have a cc role at all? Outdated thematics. Personally, I think the harpy should just be changed to something like all the other flyers, while the crone gets some other buff but keeps the charge ability.

Now, being T6 4+ is certainly doing them no favours, but I definitely don't think T7 3+ makes any sense: they're big and bulky, but not heavily armoured. A wound bump would probably be more appropriate (and a points drop/damage bump ).

[dakkafex]

Taking them to 14/16 wounds and making them a bit cheaper would probably be the way to go.

Making the Harpy's guns better would just mean that Hive Tyrants/Carnifexes with those weapons would become even better (not that I would complain, anyway, but that change alone wouldn't solve the issue).

I would love to see the good old Vector Strike back for them, especially if they are gonna make them actual flyers (as at least the Hive Crone is supposed to be in the lore, even though not charging would mean that its points need to drop dramatically to make it a viable anti-flyer option)

[hivefleetkaiju]

Jan 21, 2019 22:20:22 GMT remington said:

 Plus, being out synapse range needs to be addressed as well.

Read more: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/56551/talk-harpies-after-ca#ixzz5dKQXwyuR

in the last edition, since IB only kicks in with failed Ld test, these flying monsters are given high Ld to mitigate the IB issue. They still keep the high Ld this edition but the high Ld no longer helps them
GW should really think of a solution

[remington]

Jan 22, 2019 1:11:01 GMT No One said:

remington said:

Not enough. They really need be at least marine equilevant, so -1 to hit 'cause they should be flyers, 3+ almost everybody else has it and T7 cause they need to be more tankier (and effectively they are more bulkier than eldar variants). And their guns/options need more ooomph naturally.

No. As the harpy is, it should not just get all the survivability buffs of all the other flyers. Why? We can charge, they can't. And the ability to charge on a 30" Fly unit is pretty good. It should have some counter balance. However, what role does the harpy want to serve? Gun boat. What role does the crone want to serve? Charger. Why does the harpy have a cc role at all? Outdated thematics. Personally, I think the harpy should just be changed to something like all the other flyers, while the crone gets some other buff but keeps the charge ability.

Now, being T6 4+ is certainly doing them no favours, but I definitely don't think T7 3+ makes any sense: they're big and bulky, but not heavily armoured. A wound bump would probably be more appropriate (and a points drop/damage bump ).

Yes, our flyers needs new roles, and yes, harpy should be pure flyer. And if they are keeping their midiocre T6 & 4+ they should be cheaper. 

[kazetanade]

Harpy with 2 x Twin VC would basically be win - it needs no other points changes. But alas, that's a model change and it ain't happening. Taking into account all its parts, it doesn't feel too off - it's got a MW bombing run, it's got 2 big guns and a reasonable melee weapon for a Flyer, it's got special combat rules, and is a very average 4+ 4+, T6 W12 4+ (being nearly middle of the road for everything). That screams about 140 or so.

If Knights were not a big thing, they'd be OK. If A1aitoc was a cover save instead of - 1, it'd probably be ok too.

Is definitely not competitive though. But for more casual games, it's a good addition imo.

[devilrules]

In the knight metta harpies are useful, making them always attack last is so important

[Mioum]

Jan 23, 2019 13:21:12 GMT devilrules said:

In the knight metta harpies are useful, making them always attack last is so important

One thing that could be done to buff the shooting would be to allow it to fire twice with each gun (or just add an extra D3/D6 shot per gun so you can't split the shots), but can't charge the turn it did (even maybe no spore mine drop if needed). Would boost the Harpy shooting without a change to the models needed, and would not affect Tyrant or Carnifex with the Venom or Stanglethorn. Having BS3+ would also help (can't we have dedicated beast with a profile that is good at it's job? We have so many "specialist" that hit on 4+ with low number of shots/attacks with very little in term of buff or support compared to other armies).

And I also agree on the "more wounds" versus more T or save. A couples more wounds on our monsters would be pretty nice overall.

[ddt]

They’re ok but not great. Part of the problem is they are Jis neither Harpy’s or Crones have a defined role; some shooting, little bit of CC and the Harpy does a few mortal wounds. In effect they are glass cannons but the cannon is somewhat unspectacular.
I played 3 Harpy’s as well and honestly think the points better spent elsewhere.

[afewveiws]

They are basically flying carnifexen with less damage output and less survivability but alot more mobility.

They will br competitive at 100pts as they currently are. They are in need of a rework.

Edit: if you bring 3 harpies thrwn that's average 12 hvc shots with 6 hits, 4 wounds and 2-3 unsaved... So 6-9 damage (stingr salvos do 1 damage) then add in the charges

30" move should mean your in easy charge range, should survive overwatch without degrading... 9atks total reroll 1's. So ~5 hits wounds most vehicles/monsters on 5+ so let's pray for 2 wounds -2ap basicly means 1 get through average 2 damage for all 3.

So 3 harpies fully dedicated to a single target vehicle only does 9-12 damage. On the high end it looks not bad. The low end is more representative of what would happen to a knight.

With the crone with all shooting and charges against a similar target...
So... 3from flamer and salvos and then 4mortal wounds from the missile bugs if non-fly vehicle t7+ (so 7 damage so far)
Melee: 2 for the base wing attacks and then with a bit of luck 2 more damage from the spur... So 3 crone do 11 damage vs 1 tough vehicle...

The bharpy might be better off taking a strangle thorn Cannon and clearing chaff and light stuff. And the crone should target light weight flying things (deldar having the ideal profiles)

But these numbers cost ~ 450 pts.... So still bad.