Post CA, Exocrine is better than 6 hive guard

[topaxygourouni]

In fact a lot better.

Forgoing movement, they both sport 12 shots with a 3+ to hit at 36". Exocrine is ap -3, hive guard are ap -2 and ignores cover, so let's call that equal and favoring the exocrine slightly. then Exocrine is 2 damage flat vs d3 for the hive guard. That's also about equal, with the Exocrine being more consistent and the Hive guard having the potential for better and worse range. Hive guard win by having +1 str on their attacks and being able to shoot out of LOS. Exocrine has better degrading, since it needs to lose 6 wounds to get a worse BS, at which point you would be out of 3 from your 6 hive guard, so you would have half the number of shots already. Exocrine is also more survivable, sporting better toughness and save than the hive guard. But the real difference is in points, where the Exocrine is a good 112 pts less than the 6 hive guard!

hive guard would of course benefit by being able to move and shoot without gimping themselves, but with 36" shooting, that makes less impact than on paper. hive guards would benefit from the shoot twice stratagem, while Exocrine can have the +1 damage and healing stratagems.

Taking both would cost 458 pts, while taking two exocrines would cost 340.

I think the difference in price now is so big that I can see myself shelving my hive guard in the near future. What do you think?

[kinginyellow]

6 wounds is 2 hive guard or 1/3 the shots and at STR 8 vs 7 with twice the number of shots due to strategem, I feel this is superior to the +1/2 damage of the exocrine.

Personally though, I use neither as with a Swarmlord rush list I find most lists stand back, making the hive guards shortish range a problem and they try to hide out of los so isn't on the front lines.

[hunk]

the exo can shoot again naturally if it doesn't move in the movement phase as well as a plus 1 to its hits rolls you can get off 24 shots for 2 plus an extra 6 if you use the stratagem on the exo as well as a plus 1 to all those hits its and a ap-3 for almost 100 points cheaper its pretty good I may use this.

[Kitane]

Depends on your local meta and how much they love imperial knights.

Many of our MCs will trade poorly when facing Knights or armies prepared to deal with Knights.

[topaxygourouni]

Jan 16, 2019 15:48:27 GMT Kitane said:

Depends on your local meta and how much they love imperial knights.

Many of our MCs will trade poorly when facing Knights or armies prepared to deal with Knights.

I don't think the value of a unit has to do with meta. The fact is, for the price of 6 hive guard you can take the exocrine and a quad devourer enhanced senses carnifex. Are the hive guard justifying this difference?

[topaxygourouni]

Jan 16, 2019 15:19:37 GMT hunk said:

the exo can shoot again naturally if it doesn't move in the movement phase as well as a plus 1 to its hits rolls you can get off 24 shots for 2 plus an extra 6 if you use the stratagem on the exo as well as a plus 1 to all those hits its and a ap-3 for almost 100 points cheaper its pretty good I may use this.

Can't use the shoot again stratagem on the Exo, but we can use the +1 damage that the hive guard cannot. They are similar enough to be compared in almost every aspect, except for the 112 pts you save.

[hunk]

ah ok but still its a pretty good amount of points you save just for almost the same thing minus through walls and 8 S on impaler cannons

[topaxygourouni]

Jan 16, 2019 16:10:41 GMT hunk said:

ah ok but still its a pretty good amount of points you save just for almost the same thing minus through walls and 8 S on impaler cannons

It's also more reliable, in the sense that it's always -3 ap, even against things outside cover, and the flat 2 damage makes it easier to calculate chances of removing something off the board.

[pjetski]

Exocrines are pretty good but they're not strictly better than Hive Guard.

The most valuable part of Hive Guard is shooting without line of sight, but there's also the INFANTRY keyward so you can climb walls, easily gain cover, use the shoot twice stratagem, they ignore cover (effectively another point of AP) and you put them in Jormungandr tunnels. They are also an Elite choice rather than a Heavy choice, so they're not competing with Carnifexes and Tyrannofexes for slots in a Battalion.

[topaxygourouni]

Jan 16, 2019 16:17:40 GMT pjetski said:

Exocrines are pretty good but they're not strictly better than Hive Guard.

The most valuable part of Hive Guard is shooting without line of sight, but there's also the INFANTRY keyward so you can climb walls, easily gain cover, use the shoot twice stratagem, they ignore cover (effectively another point of AP) and you put them in Jormungandr tunnels. They are also an Elite choice rather than a Heavy choice, so they're not competing with Carnifexes and Tyrannofexes for slots in a Battalion.

Being in cover would make their armor the same as the Exocrine's, not better. And ignoring cover would make their ap the same as the Exocrine's, not better. Also a unit of 6 hive guard will have difficulty getting into cover, their base is not that small. Their only point of being really better in my opinion is their ability to double tap. I'm not sure it's worth 112 pts though.

[anomandaris]

Not even close, I'd take Hive Guard any day. The Exocrine will just get shot off the board t1 by any list worth its salt. The Exocrine is a fun unit but there's a reason it never shows up in tournaments, even with the points drop - same as the Tyrannofex, they are both just big fat blobs will just die before contributing anything meaningful to the game.

Hive Guard are one of our strongest units because there is very little the majority of opponents can do against them and they reliably delete key targets off the board every single turn. Yes their range is a weakness, but if your opponent is sitting back out of 36" range then they won't holding the objectives, you will. Now that the majority of game types have consecutive round scoring, your opponent will be forced to commit forward or they'll lose the game.

This is another classic case of why Mathhammer actually offers very little in terms of deciding which unit is better. You need the context of an actual game. All those stats mean nothing when your Exo eats anti-tank and dies turn 1.

[gigasnail]

forgoing movement, sitting in the open to return fire, with a reduced range. these are the exact same problems it's always had when compared to HG. it's just a bit cheaper now.

if your enemy doesn't shoot it or assault it, and lets it stand there all day raining plasma down on him, then yeah it's going to be better lol. the output in a vacuum was never in question, but it's output on the table vs. someone that sees that gun profile and says 'nope' and does something about it.

[mattblowers]

Jan 16, 2019 14:36:13 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Taking both would cost 458 pts, while taking two exocrines would cost 340.

I think the difference in price now is so big that I can see myself shelving my hive guard in the near future. What do you think?

The problem for me is that you don't take 2 units of hive guard, but if you run exocrines, you need 2 units of them for the redundancy. Now you have committed 340 points vs 229. In order to protect the 340 points you need 140-180 points of -1 to hit for protection PLUS you need a babysitter, so another 90-110. Now the unit is costing you 590 points. That's too expensive to live swinging in the breeze so you need a screen. That's another 80 points at a minimum. So, 670 points. Now in order to earn those points you need to buff it up a little, so you need it to be kronos for the reroll 1s. So, we need another HQ and 2 more troops. That's a minimum of another 156 points. That's 926, which is half your list. At this point I think you need another heavy hitter for what has become a gunline so you add 2 biovores for misdirection and anti-psyker since you are kronos. No we are at 1026 points. That leaves under a thousand points to build the Kraken portion of the list, assuming you are going that route.

This is the problem I have with Tyranids: we don't do a gunline as good as many other armies, and every point we spend trying to do it takes us one step farther away from what we do best which is get up in your grill and eat your face off. In a vacuum you are correct. The problem is that 229 points of hive guard gives you a great multi-tool that does some really heavy lifting. 1 exocrine does not.

[zimko]

6 Hive Guard is 288 pts. But I agree with what you're saying.

[Hive Bahamut]

Exocrines are still trap units. Played two games with 2 of them and no more.

Both deleted first turn no problem, almost both 2nd game. A couple Chapter Master Lacannons and goodbye Monsters.

You can't hide them, and you can't match 48". They are back to the shelf for me.

Perfect example of good on paper, poor in execution. Pass.