1500 Tourney

[darktemplar]

Hey Hive,

I am heading to my first tourney with the new Tyranid codex in two weeks. My list has been slowly evolving and now I am getting pretty close to what I want to run. I am not sure on hive fleets yet and have just tried out a big unit of stealers with the Kraken strategem and yet undecided on them. Ideally I would drop them for an exocrine but I don't have the model yet.. I tried this list last week against a reaper spam, wraithfighter/hemloch spam list and it did really well.

Behemoth - Batalion

Flyrant, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Devourers, Monstrous Rending Claws 193
Flyrant, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Devourers, Monstrous Rending Claws 193

Rippers x3, 33
Rippers x3, 33
Rippers x3, 33


Kraken - Spearhead

Flyrant, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Devourers, Monstrous Rending Claws, Warlord with -1dmg trait, Chameleonic artifact 193

Genestealers x18, 216

Hiveguard x6, 288

Carnifex, Enhanced Senses, 4x Devourers, Bonemace 107
Carnifex, Enhanced Senses, 4x Devourers, 105
Carnifex, Enhanced Senses, 4x Devourers, 105

1499 Total

What do you guys think? The tourney has no forgeworld and last tourney I had to fight against a imperial knight in 3 games and 1 gulliman. I expect more of the same and more primarchs potentially. Missions will be malestrom and tactical objectives. The ground floor of ruins will block line of sight.
Comments and criticisms welcome.

[avasraali]

Given your Spearhead detachment is spending far more points on dakka than on melee, it seems like running Kronos would make more sense than running Kraken. If you really want the Kraken buff for your 'stealers, swap them into the first Battalion and run Kraken on that instead.

That said, the 'stealers seem out of place in general to me. The vast majority of your points are being spent on monsters, and given the 8e split fire rules they'll have plenty of small arms fire to throw at them while their anti-tank weapons shoot at your monsters, especially if they fail to get off a 1st turn charge. This is one of the few times I'd suggest that Warriors might be preferable to 'stealers - not only would they be a less vulnerable target for small arms fire, if they're hanging back they'll be keeping the Hive Guard in synapse range to avoid the potential -1 to hit debuff if and when your Flyrants head out to start eating things.

Final note - I assume it's not possible for you to swap them out since you'll already have made and painted the models, but going rending claws on all your Flyrants leaves you pretty all-in on using them for anti-tank. Against most infantry you'll be wounding on 3+ and all but negating armour whether you run talons or claws, and claws' variable damage output is a major hindrance when fighting 2 wound infantry even with toxin sacs. If you're heavily expecting Knights then I guess it'll work, but I'm not sure going all-in like that is wise.

[darktemplar]

Thanks for the feedback

Yea I had thought of running Kronos on the spearhead, potentially swapping out the stealers for a behemoth trygon and a kronos biovore (for deepest shadow on the spores). Kronos may not benefit the fex much, as 18" is a short range and if I move I don't get the re-roll 1's. Sure it works great on the hiveguard but the 3d6 advance of kraken gives the fex a lot more opportunity to get around the table and use their shots. I might try out kronos in my test game in two days.

The stealers are a counter assault for my gunline, I can hide them in nodes if needed or use them as a screen against deepstrike assault armies. I can also use them to tie up gunlines in a pinch. They have a huge reach with the double advance stratagem. They have a lot of utility on paper.

Warriors is an interesting idea but from experience so far - I need something to touch castled up vehicles/gun lines and boost my combat options. Still not sold on the stealers for this yet though. From recent exp the claws on flyrants are great, I use the flyrants for chasing down flyers as -1 hit from shooting makes flyers hard to take down. Even with d3 dmg they usually do pretty well, rerolls to wound vs vehicles is good, on any 6's to wound they do a flat 4 dmg with -6 ap and are a lot cheaper than talons. I am thinking of running one of the flyrants with double guns (I have magnetised them all so can swap freely).

[avasraali]

If your main purpose on the Flyrants is chasing down vehicles/flyers then yeah, agree on the claws. Just thinking three sets is a lot, but if it's working for you then no reason to swap out, particularly given your expectation of a knight-heavy tourney.

Re: Kronos - you may be right. It is definitely true that devourers have a nasty range issue. I guess it depends whether you're expecting a static gunline or a more mobile opponent - just one or two times when a fex is in range when it otherwise wouldn't be outweighs an awful lot of rerolls. Also depends how often you tend to use the Kraken strategem I suppose, since the Kronos one is pretty situational.

Re: thought on Trygon. Not sure I would agree with a trygon replacing the 'stealers since an isolated trygon can be dealt with relatively easily. If you could make room to use it to bring company then maybe. Or perhaps just hold in reserve to deploy in a pinch? Unsure, really.

Re: Warriors : In hindsight, I agree - just conscious of losing the BS on the Hive Guard. Though they're still pretty solid even on 4s.

Re: Dakkarant - my understanding is that this is usually avoided because dakkafexes do basically the same job but for fewer points. Though obviously if you do decide to go Kronos it has major benefits since you're more likely to be able to stay stationary in subsequent turns... hmm.

Question - how often do Adrenal Glands make a difference on your Flyrants? I'm not suggesting you drop them (nowhere better to spend the points, after all), I'm just curious how much the added 1" impacts on the already significant Flyrant movement.

[darktemplar]

Yea I remembered the other reason I took Kraken is for the -1 to hit relic that could help my Tyrant survive any turn 1 alphastrikes (already helped out in a game vs the 3x eldar flyers).

As for the Flyrants, I am still feeling this out but the adrenal glands go best with behemoth re-rolls for assault where +1" means a lot (especially on alphastrike). This list was originally heavy alphastrike but I've been slowly changing it. You are probably right that behemoth and the AG are not the best choice for the batallion. Maybe I wait until I can get an exocrine and make the whole thing kronos... but that wont happen for this tourney.


My only assault units are the flyrants and stealers. Still not sure what the best options are if I swap the stealers. I need to keep something that's good in combat and tying stuff up (that is what my list is lacking). Hormagaunts and gargoyles seem the best for tying stuff up but then they lack they lack punch..

This was my list previously:

Behemoth - Battalion

Flyrant, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Devourers, Monstrous Rending Claws 193
Flyrant, Adrenal Glands, Devourers, Monstrous Rending Claws 189

Rippers x3, 33
Rippers x3, 33
Genestealers x10, 120

Trygon, Adrenal Glands, 173

Jormagundr - Spearhead

Swarmlord 300

Hiveguard x3, 144

Carnifex, Enhanced Senses, 4x Devourers, 105
Carnifex, Enhanced Senses, 4x Devourers, 105
Carnifex, Enhanced Senses, 4x Devourers, 105

1500

[avasraali]

I think you're better off with the bigger 'stealer swarm than thinning them for a Trygon. Particularly as you seem to be losing HGs for it too. Not really sure what to suggest beyond that, my inexperience leaves me lacking I'm afraid.

By the way - I assume it's unwritten because it's a given, but just in case - don't forget the acid maws on the 'stealers. Zero points for a significant upgrade.

[darktemplar]

Cheers! yea I haven't found a need for the acid maws yet as mainly been playing eldar and orks. I'll make sure to add them in I guess their main use is vs 2+/3+ saves?

hmm was just looking at my 3rd fex which was actually an old one eye in my last tourney. I could drop the stealers, upgrade 1 fex to OOE and then add in a screen of hormagaunts/gargoyles/gaunts/rippers? I could even squeeze in sporecysts on the two remaining fex.

Are 18 stealers, and a dev fex worth more/less than OOE, 3x3 rippers, 2x sporecysts on the fex (+2 CP)?

[avasraali]

Re: Acid Maw, my understanding is that you'd use it at almost all times if the alternative is Rending Claws. -3 AP consistently is better than -1 AP moving to -4 AP on a wound roll of 6. Against targets with a 3+ save or better AND a toughness of 8 or higher, use Rending Claws, as you'll only be wounding on 6+ anyway. Anything with <=7 toughness and a 3+ save or better, Acid Maw will outperform (numbers wise, if you're wounding on 5+, you have a 50% chance to get AP -4 and 50% to get AP -1, for an average of AP -2.5; this average AP goes down as wound chance increases).

If you wanted to really maximise them, according to the Codex RAW 'stealers can also ALL have free scything talons AS WELL AS their rending claws (and Acid Maws). STs will outperform both Rending Claws and Acid Maw against targets with no save, or whose best save is invulnerable anyway (like other 'stealers, daemons). Pretty small use-case though, so might not be even worth bothering with - and I'm not sure if this has been FAQ'd out or something.

Re: Your latter question - I'd say that's a question for someone with more play experience than me. That said, spore cysts are really, really good...

[darktemplar]

I'm trying the top list out vs Eldar this evening. Think I will try the kraken detachment once more. I'm trimming some upgrades and upgrading a Behemoth Flyrant to have the relic venom cannon for 1CP. Will see if it helps the damage output vs vehicles.

[darktemplar]

I had a great 1500 pt game vs Eldar the other night. His list was something like this:

Ulthwe? (6++ saves)

2x Farseers
5 Rangers
5 Dark Reapers
20 Guardians, Missile Launcher platform
Falcon, Bright lance and some other guns
Wave Serpent, 2x Bright Lance, 2x starcannons/shuriken cannons
Exarch Fighter flyer, 2x Bright Lance, 2x strength 8 damage 3 gun.
Fire Prism
Wraithlord
5x Waithguard with D-Cannons (in webway)

We played tactical objective cards with 6 objective markers. We had no full LOS blocking terrain so I knew it wasn't going to be in my favour from the start but his list, while strong, didn't seem completely optimised. He went first and one shotted a fex with the Wave Serpent. His other shooting destroyed half my stealers and took my warlord down to 6 wounds.

In my turn I deepstruck my behemoth flyrants, the miasma cannon only rolled 1 shot but did 3 dmg to his farseer and then its scream and smite were blocked, the other flyrant assaulted the waveserpent but only did 3 dmg due to shield. My Hiveguard double tapped into the fortuned fireprism, only managing 2 wounds!? Both behemoth flyrants got their charge on the re-roll, one with a roll of 8. Genestealers rolled a 3 for my opportunistic advance - I only needed a 4 to tie up the guardians and grab the wounded farseer for feeder tendrils strategem. He was rolling VERY well, causing 5/6 wounds on all of his d6 damage weapons, I couldn't save anything. I re-rolled several failed invulns for lance weapons on my tyrants by failed them all. Exciting bit was the warlord with devourers did the last wounds on the falcon and blew it up injuring 3 of his units for 1 mortal wound but 3 to itself! A ripper swarm charged the rangers and ate them up over 2 turns.

Learning from the game was that i deploy rippers to ring in my guys and deny his deepstriking units like wraithguard from coming in and shooting my flyrants. The dev fex are again stand out units, they managed to finish off the exarch fighter and do a few wounds on the other vehicles. I deployed them in a line across the center and need to deploy them more centrally in the future. Loosing one first turn was a shock but I was glad I had two more. I am really thinking I should drop a couple of stealers for sporecysts on all of the fex to help them survive longer (especially vs heavy weapons). I will think more about deploying stealers in nodes, but I did want to use the alphastrike kraken advance if I got first turn. The Hiveguard under performed, they were in range of his reapers after deployment but he sent them to the far corner of the table with a tricky strategem. I multi assaulted the stealers into a wounded approx 10man guardian squad and the reapers (should have assaulted the guardians and then consolidated into the reapers as I lost 6 stealers to overwatch!!). Onslaught and kraken advance on the warlord was a surprise! It managed to move around very quickly and still shoot and assault things with the boosted range. Definitely like the deathspitters extra range and ap on the warlord.

I ended up winning 8VP to 5 at turn 5.

[avasraali]

Sounds like it went pretty well considering the rough first turn and strong rolls from your opponent!

I agree on the spore cysts note - cysts are just too good, particularly since they really screw with plasma. I do worry about dropping more models from the 'stealer brood though, since if they take a round of shooting somehow (unlucky charge roll perhaps) they'll be pretty easily neutralised. That said, I can't really see much room in your list to thin things out other than them, so possibly a necessary risk.

How did Swarmy get on? The only alternative to dropping 'stealers would be to downgrade Swarmlord to another Flyrant, grab the spore cysts, and then throw the other 70 points wherever (additional stealers, hive guard, what have you). But if he's accomplishing a lot then go with the stealer drop I think.

[darktemplar]

Yes I'm sending my final list in today. Will post it soon. Minor adjustments from the first list, drop a few Stealers for 3x cysts. I didn't take swarmy as he was in my earlier list. My thinking was that he didnt really add much to the list that a Flyrant couldn't do. And a Flyrant with -1 to hit and -1dmg would be more survivable from turn1 shooting alphastrikes.