Explain Devilgaunts PLS

[gigasnail]

Oct 7, 2017 1:13:52 GMT localcultist said:

Big unit of Devilgants don't need Tervigon that bad. You can't replace them and rerolling 1's come from numbers anyway. It also make You lose d6 dakkabugs, possibly killing 48 points worth of shooting per unit (and You want to have at least one unit within Terv range). Do that 5 units with devourers and it basically doubled it's cost.
If anything it can produce unit of boubblewrap for them. Other than running them with regular Termagants (either as stand alone units or mixed with Devilgants, they can soak wounds from Terv death too) there are just plain better HQs out there.

that's not how you use tervs with devourer units. you take 20 devourer bugs and 10 flesh borers. then you remove the flesh borers as casualties first, and replenish them w/ the tervs. if the terv bites it, you still just remove the flesh borer gants.

they're still too easy to take down.

[Bellator]

Sure, tervigons aren't our best monster, but I think you guys are underselling them.

T8 and a 2+ in cover is about as good as we get, especially with 14 wounds. Give it catalyst, the 6+ fnp warlord trait, and a malenthrope and your opponent will struggle to move it.

[kazetanade]

The question is you just gave it the best defensive ability we had, and dedicated another 90 points to it that serves a redundant Synapse role. I hope there's a big cover terrain thing in the middle of the table where you need it to be in order for the gants to be in position to threaten anything not your base objective (so that the enemy doesnt just ignore it).

Oh, and that the enemy arent going to shoot the Genestealers that dont have Catalyst support anymore.

Also hope that the Swarmlord you brought isnt going to miss that +1A.

Does it really do that much to justify all the above? This is like 2+ save Guardsmen Infantry - WHY BOTHER?

If we're going to be very plain and honest, the Tervigon's concept is pretty decent. It serves an okay mid-field anchor and makes mass Gants actually viable, you WILL take over the midfield. You could take 2 for the extra surety (or just make sure the enemy doesnt have time to shoot at it because there are way more pressing targets to deal with; just like everything else in our codex, something being a sole target is a recipe for disaster). It has a lot of potential, although you need to build around it and not just slot it in. Its only real issue is its cost for damage output (which is ridiculously low, and only sort of countered by its tanky stats and utility), and a potential issue is the transporting of it into ideal positions.

It's in a far better position than the Haruspex, who is just as badly costed due to its tankiness but terrible output (due to the weapon's stats, or his own stats). It's also not top tier competitive due to its utility being too constrained, low damage output, and high cost, but it's actually quite close.

[gigasnail]

^this, pretty much. the terv with all that support is a *lot* of junk in the trunk. that's a lot of points for very little output that the enemy can still pretty easily burn down with artillery after they've killed off your actual threats.

you're also not easily getting a cover save on a model the size of a tervigon. it's easier than with an exocrine, because you don't care about fields of fire for the terv. it's just stupidly huge.

[Bellator]

It was said that they die easy, I stated why it didn't when I used it. Now you're saying why am I not using swarmy and buffing genestealers instead? Is that a serious question?

Again, it is not our best monster, but I find it's performance reasonable.

[kazetanade]

You may have missed the point. The point is that your proposed additions aren't contributing a lot to the army as a whole when you throw all that junk on the Tervigon, because the Tervigon cant do much more with it than just "exist" in that space.

The genestealers and SL comments are your lost opportunity costs for throwing Catalyst and the Warlord trait on the T-gon.

[Bellator]

Oct 7, 2017 20:24:10 GMT kazetanade said:

You may have missed the point. The point is that your proposed additions aren't contributing a lot to the army as a whole when you throw all that junk on the Tervigon, because the Tervigon cant do much more with it than just "exist" in that space.

The genestealers and SL comments are your lost opportunity costs for throwing Catalyst and the Warlord trait on the T-gon.

The malanthrope gives its -1 to more than just the tervigon, catalyst can be used on other units, and I rather enjoy big models taking up space next to central objectives. But a tervigon doesn't poop out stealers, guess I am doing 8th wrong then, because I don't always use stealers, and even when I do I never bring more than 20. I better shelve all my cool models and buy more stealers.

[lordelwess]

Explain devilgaunts? It's all about the dakka.

[gigasnail]

Oct 7, 2017 21:16:26 GMT Bellator said:

Oct 7, 2017 20:24:10 GMT kazetanade said:

You may have missed the point. The point is that your proposed additions aren't contributing a lot to the army as a whole when you throw all that junk on the Tervigon, because the Tervigon cant do much more with it than just "exist" in that space.

The genestealers and SL comments are your lost opportunity costs for throwing Catalyst and the Warlord trait on the T-gon.

The malanthrope gives its -1 to more than just the tervigon, catalyst can be used on other units, and I rather enjoy big models taking up space next to central objectives. But a tervigon doesn't poop out stealers, guess I am doing 8th wrong then, because I don't always use stealers, and even when I do I never bring more than 20. I better shelve all my cool models and buy more stealers.

It's a tactics subforum. That's generally about taking what is best competitively, not about running cool models because they're cool. Tervigon is definitely not on the A list, but it is definitely a cool model.

[localcultist]

Oct 7, 2017 4:37:26 GMT gigasnail said:

Oct 7, 2017 1:13:52 GMT localcultist said:

Big unit of Devilgants don't need Tervigon that bad. You can't replace them and rerolling 1's come from numbers anyway. It also make You lose d6 dakkabugs, possibly killing 48 points worth of shooting per unit (and You want to have at least one unit within Terv range). Do that 5 units with devourers and it basically doubled it's cost.
If anything it can produce unit of boubblewrap for them. Other than running them with regular Termagants (either as stand alone units or mixed with Devilgants, they can soak wounds from Terv death too) there are just plain better HQs out there.

that's not how you use tervs with devourer units. you take 20 devourer bugs and 10 flesh borers. then you remove the flesh borers as casualties first, and replenish them w/ the tervs. if the terv bites it, you still just remove the flesh borer gants.

they're still too easy to take down.

I didn't said You should take unit made out of 30 Devilgants (I would go with anything between 1:2 or even 1:1 Borer/Dev ratio) without wound catchers, HOWEVER consider this:

10 Borergants cost 40 points.
D6 Devilgants (I assume Terv would lose it's last wound when respawned Borers are dead) cost 8-48 points per unit (statistically it's 3,5 Devilgants dead worth 28 points).

In that conditions it may be simply not worth it to have Terv around, since Devilgant have damage output of 3 Borergants at superior range. The only thing Borergants have is number.


I think I'd rather go with 15:15 mix and different (more useful/flexible) HQ rather than 10:20 + Terv. If it would regenerate them constantly (how about making it AoE medic/ give it better Catalyst for Termagants?) then yes, it would be useful.

[gigasnail]

I'd rather not take either unit as things stand. Dev gaunts out of a pod or trygon maybe, but that's it.

[localcultist]

Oct 8, 2017 0:04:08 GMT gigasnail said:

I'd rather not take either unit as things stand. Dev gaunts out of a pod or trygon maybe, but that's it.

I't trying to figure out how to build efficient Swarmahorde Drop with AM/GSC/Nid combo (Plasma or Melta Sciorns and psykers so I have access to three magic types/Stealers+minimal Neophytes objective grabbers/Bulk of army made out of Nids, with assorted units from any three armies plugging holes) so I may need those big units before "good stuff" arrives (probably could do it with conscripts, but I like big bugs and small bugs). I guess I'm THIS guy.

May wait with getting everything started till Nix/GSC codex hits (I hope it's one book, knowing GW probably not)

[gigasnail]

Codex is in 6 weeks at a maximum. Do not go aND buy a bunch of stuff just yet.

[localcultist]

Oct 8, 2017 1:02:36 GMT gigasnail said:

 Do not go aND buy a bunch of stuff just yet.

"Whoops!"

I only got essentials - Magus, Primus, Genestealers (nabbed ones from Space Hulk for pennies), Neophytes (for Scions kitbash with Skiitari bits), Poxwalkers (Add guns, add bony plates on horns, some nid bits, should make great "infested", parasite/disease ridden populace to use as Neophytes or brain-dead conscripts) and some bugs (been lucky enough to buy Hormagants with "free" Termagant gun/bits sprues, also big bag of assorted bits).

Been aiming for Nidfested research station /prison, lots of "civilians" (GSC) with "security" (Scions) and tiny bugs scuttling around.

I think I've spent $200 total for about 100 models (admittedly, most of them are snap-fits but I should do just fine with slicing and dicing, followed by adding bits). How could I NOT?

...cough cough... anyway, Devilgants. 8 points for 3 S4 Assault shots at 18", go figure. Neophytes cost 5, AM infantry cost 4, both are Rapid Fire 24, but also S3. The last bit is kind of important against T4.

[gigasnail]

my point was more 'dont commit to any one approach just yet because everything is liable to change drastically' vs DON'T BUY ANY OF THE THINGS!!!!

hopefully tervs get a cost reduction or something to make them worth their giant price tag in the codex.