MathHammer Spreadsheet - Genestealers

[kjolnir]

So I found myself in situations in games where I wasn't able to do the math quickly enough in my head to make a determination on which was better to attack with - rending claws or scything talons?  I had some time today, so I tossed everything together into a spreadsheet.  A couple of things to note:

1)  I KNOW THERE ARE ROUNDING ERRORS.  If the critique is "yeah but 0.6 attacks should be rounded down to 0 because there's no such thing as 0.6 attacks, therefore when you did math and ended up with 1.2 attacks from the 0.6 attacks, that 1.2 attacks should ACHHKTUUUUALLY be 0 attacks as well" then I ALREADY KNOW.  The point is to be a general reference on a comparison between the two weapons.  I will ignore any post along these lines.

2)  I think my math is correct.  If it's not, let me know and I will alter the spreadsheet to reflect.

Here's the link: drive.google.com/open?id=0B-rd4SuQhtN-SVZpM2tMZHVfa1k

Bottom line 1: Rending claws are better in all instances, even without the re-rolling of 1s from Scything Talons, because the 1/6th chance to get an AP-4 wound gets you a good baseline of wounds with no saves against MeQ. 
Bottom line 2: 10 GSs are 50% as combat effective as 20 (duh), but 9 are only 1/3 as effective as 20, due to losing the extra attack.  Keep your dudes at 10+!!
Bottom line 3:  Toxin Sacs are boss, if you can afford them.  44 unsaved DAMAGE ( @ 2 Damage/wound) for a unit of 20 GSs against MeQ with Rending Claws + Broodlord/Patriach/Primus.

****UPDATE****

Updated the spreadsheet:

1) Added in GeQ, as well as MeQ 3++, 4++, and 5++

2) Froze the first column to keep the reference point when scrolling

3) Added in a bit of formatting to make it easier to read


Takeaways: When invuls are part of the equation, scything talons are always better.

[keening]

Nice work although I'd say that it's better to buy more Genestealers than buying Toxin Sacs. 4 points on a 12 model is too much: 4 without Toxin Sacs > 3 with.

[Doom Moth]

Thanks for doing the math man, really sends home how effective they are

[vectron]

Aaaackthually, I think you are correct in keeping fractional hits/damage, because it translates into P(a) where a = successful attack. It also becomes relevant when scaling up to multiple units.

[infornography]

Unless I am missing something scything talons will always be better against a target with no armor save or with an invuln that is as good as its armor. Rending claws are always better if it has a save that can be reduced. Makes it pretty simple to keep track of in the moment. let me know if I am missing something though. I am still reading through all the rules (even with this simplified edition it takes a while to get all caught up after dropping out for an entire edition).

[killercroc]

Scything talons are situationally good, and they're free so no reason not to take them. They're good against models with no save, invuln only, if there is a unit that is harder to hit due to power or ability and if you want to kill less models for whatever reason. Rending claws are better than scything talons 99% of the time, the difference comes down to on the units where they are optional do you want to spend the points for them. So like Warriors do you want to spend 2 points to get rending or spend 0 points to get two sets of scythes for an extra attack and re-rolls of 1's. I think that's the more important distinction than on 'stealers.

Over all nice spread sheet, helps to show things in an easy to understand way for people who just want the math.

[kjolnir]

Jul 26, 2017 18:00:30 GMT infornography said:

Unless I am missing something scything talons will always be better against a target with no armor save or with an invuln that is as good as its armor. Rending claws are always better if it has a save that can be reduced. Makes it pretty simple to keep track of in the moment. let me know if I am missing something though. I am still reading through all the rules (even with this simplified edition it takes a while to get all caught up after dropping out for an entire edition).

Yep, that's correct.  If the armor save is 7+ or they have an invul that is better/same as their armor save, you want the increase amount of hits/wounds you get from the Scything talons since the baseline AP -4 wounds without saves disappear.

This was just done for MeQ though.  I started working through other scenarios like T1-3, T5-7, T8+, etc, and it turned into a lot of work.  I'll build the spreadsheet out later with all the permutations, I just don't have the time right now to do so.

[kjolnir]

Jul 26, 2017 17:57:31 GMT keening said:

Nice work although I'd say that it's better to buy more Genestealers than buying Toxin Sacs. 4 points on a 12 model is too much: 4 without Toxin Sacs > 3 with.

Yep, though 60 points only gets you 5 GSs, which isn't terribly effective.  i would argue that 80 pts on a unit of 20 GSs is better than 72 pts for a unit of 6.

Course if we're talking Purestrains, then all this math goes out the window.  I'm going to update the spreadsheet to reflect that and remove the Patriach/Primus from those section titles.  It's a bit misleading.

[royalecheez]

Thank you for this. Great tool.

[kjolnir]

Jul 26, 2017 19:33:52 GMT royalecheez said:

Thank you for this. Great tool.

You bet!  I'll add more to it later this week and let everyone know when it's updated.

[mattblowers]

Jul 26, 2017 17:35:09 GMT kjolnir said:

Bottom line 2: 10 GSs are 50% as combat effective as 20 (duh), but 9 are only 1/3 as effective as 20, due to losing the extra attack.  Keep your dudes at 10+!!

Game condition actually have to come into play as well. 20 genestealers almost never all get to attack if they are on the correct bases. For this reason I've gone with smaller broods and more of them. Tactically and attacks wise it has worked out better in the long run. I still like to keep one big brood though. I've quit using toxin sacs because of the cost. I really like them, but I don't find that I really need them. I'm winning combats easily anyway. I don't like to throw them up against T:8 as I prefer a different tool for that. Don't get too reliant on big broods, I've had more than one game where 3-4 genestealers left in a brood turn the game for me. I'm not disagreeing with your spreadsheet, but just trying to give some perspective. Leave the toxin sacs at home and bring Broodlords, Patriarchs, and Primuses for GS and Purestrains respectively to buff them to an 11. Also, Purestrains in a Chimera parked midfield don't leave any attractive options for your opponent.

[kjolnir]

It's a work in progress, and the spreadsheet analyzes unit sizes from 1-20, as well as what happens when you attack with and without toxin sacs, with and without broodlords, and with scything talons or rending claws. There's enough info there in rev 1 to make some informed decisions when various situations arise, and I plan on adding more permutations this week as well. Stay tuned!

[kazetanade]

mattblowers PGS in s chimera are cute but why aren't the enemys anti tank guns shooting the chimera? Do you have any other big monster units on the board?

[mattblowers]

Jul 27, 2017 5:48:38 GMT kazetanade said:

mattblowers PGS in s chimera are cute but why aren't the enemys anti tank guns shooting the chimera? Do you have any other big monster units on the board?

Even if they do, they will eat the genestealers the next turn. If they don't, they still eat the genestealers next turn. I have 2 exocrines in my list as well so I'm bringing the pain in more than one way. Alternatively I've run GSC backed up by 3x manticore which might be the most point efficient hard hitting unit in the game. For less than 100 points, a chimera really jacks up the survivability of genestealers and gives one more attack angle your opponent has to worry about.

[kazetanade]

Jul 27, 2017 16:55:57 GMT mattblowers said:

Jul 27, 2017 5:48:38 GMT kazetanade said:

mattblowers PGS in s chimera are cute but why aren't the enemys anti tank guns shooting the chimera? Do you have any other big monster units on the board?

Even if they do, they will eat the genestealers the next turn. If they don't, they still eat the genestealers next turn. I have 2 exocrines in my list as well so I'm bringing the pain in more than one way. Alternatively I've run GSC backed up by 3x manticore which might be the most point efficient hard hitting unit in the game. For less than 100 points, a chimera really jacks up the survivability of genestealers and gives one more attack angle your opponent has to worry about.

There seems to be an assumption of going first in order to actually deliver the genestealers nearby before the tanks are shot - i dont think 8+D6" is enough to get into charging range on T1, leaving them exposed to anti-infantry fire for a turn.

I also assume progressive maelstrom scoring is at play, leaving both chimera and genestealers in the midfield is thus beneficial and not as suicidal, since enemy list considerations change drastically too.

I wanted to try it for awhile so i may just pop them in there for an AV saturation build but honestly speaking its 250 points (approx, its more) for the whole getup and I'm not sure how it'll work considering most people here only need to move to shoot or not move at all until T4 or so.