The Hive Tyrant in 8th Edition

[themisterpete]

Lets talk about everyone's favorite big bugs, the leaders of the swarm. 

We'll also include the swarmlord here. 

Curious about tactics, loadouts, abilities, uses etc.....

Mostly i'm curious if an all melee/synaptic support tyrant would be more viable than the swarmlord because damn.....300 points? not happening. I can get multiple tyrants for just over that.

[fuerchtegott]

The melee potential of the Swarmlord is 2 times the potential of a meleebuild hive tyrant. Possible T1 attack with the help of Hive Commander is worth 100 points. You will need to build your army around the swarmlord, but seems viable to me.

[fmc]

Melee Flyrant seems very viable now that he can just fly over and charge a unit.
No changing flight modes and sitting around for a turn. His 5+ invul will be helpful as well.

I could see him being very good at cleaning up a unit that is engaged in cc already. 

[fuerchtegott]

Jun 1, 2017 11:52:27 GMT fmc said:

Melee Flyrant seems very viable now that he can just fly over and charge a unit.
No changing flight modes and sitting around for a turn. His 5+ invul will be helpful as well.

I could see him being very good at cleaning up a unit that is engaged in cc already. 

Seems to be a good support char. It has not the attacks to kill units alone anymore, but with Boneswords, Tailons or even Rending Claws he looks like a great charakter hunter.

Monstrous Rending Claws seem unbalanced. Slightly less good than Tailons but 40 points less. Rending Claws and DSwM look like a good combo.

[powerbouncytommy]

I can't check right now but someone mentioned there's a separate points entry for 2xScytal that's cheaper than buying two sets individually. So that would bring the scytals cost closer to the rending claws.

[scriptum]

Jun 1, 2017 12:40:23 GMT powerbouncytommy said:

I can't check right now but someone mentioned there's a separate points entry for 2xScytal that's cheaper than buying two sets individually. So that would bring the scytals cost closer to the rending claws.

Rending claws cost 0 plus the Deathsppiters, for instance, 10 points each, you have a 164 points Hive Tyrant or 191 points with wings vs Double Scytals, 40 points, 184 and 211 points respectively.
I don't know how to make the maths, but at a first glance Rending + Dw/sm will be my first option to try!

[randychaz]

Just out of interest, how do you guys model your tyrants if you take rending claws and deathspitters? I'm thinking the flyrant, double deathspitters and rending claws, as that seems like a really potent option, but there are no rending claws or deathspitters in the kit.

[powerbouncytommy]

Perhaps the closed-fist ones from the Tyrant Guard set? They're probably big enough, not sure how they'd look off the ground though. Should be completely spare if you choose to make Hive Guard from the kit. Or maybe the ones in the Toxicrene/Maleceptor kit? They're used in both models though.

I'm just gonna go counts-as for quite a while I think!

[Threeshades]

Jun 1, 2017 12:06:38 GMT fuerchtegott said:

Jun 1, 2017 11:52:27 GMT fmc said:

Melee Flyrant seems very viable now that he can just fly over and charge a unit.
No changing flight modes and sitting around for a turn. His 5+ invul will be helpful as well.

I could see him being very good at cleaning up a unit that is engaged in cc already. 

Seems to be a good support char. It has not the attacks to kill units alone anymore, but with Boneswords, Tailons or even Rending Claws he looks like a great charakter hunter.

Monstrous Rending Claws seem unbalanced. Slightly less good than Tailons but 40 points less. Rending Claws and DSwM look like a good combo.

You are comparing two pairs of each?

Because that will lose the tyrant 1 attack, 1 point of damage on average per attack and the straight reroll to hit. I'll do some fun math and get back with the result to see how much difference you have with dial scythes vs dual rend.

2 Scytal
5 * (35/36) / 2 * (5/6) x 3 = 6.08

1 Scytal
4 * (35/36) / 2 * (5/6) x 3 = 4.86

1 or 2 Rending
4 * (5/6) / 2 * ((25/36) + (1/6)) x 2 = 2.87

This is what I came up with, I'm not sure if I applied the rending rule correctly. I may have not, the more I think about it. If someone with better math skills could check this over?
It might be
4 * (5/6) / 2 * ((25/36) + (1/3)) x 2 = 3,43
for rending, since 1 in 3 wounding hits are AP-6, not 1 in 6 wounding hits, and the armor save is only applied afte rthe hit has wounded.

This is calculated against T6 and a 3+ Save.

[randychaz]

I think it's mostly down to points, the 2 pairs of scything talons is 41pts for an extra attack, on average 1 re-roll, and guaranteed 3 damage per unsaved wound (only useful against multi-wound units). Or you can have the rending claws which has a chance to do the same guaranteed damage at a better save modifier, plus being able to take range weapons to soften up the unit you're going to charge, all for 21pts less.

Ah, you've added the maths, which is cool, but I don't get it lol. I don't think there would be a reason to take 2 Paris if rending claws, so the shooting should be taken into account as well as its the total damage output of the model Im interested in.

[No One]

Threeshades said:

This is what I came up with, I'm not sure if I applied the rending rule correctly. I may have not, the more I think about it. If someone with better math skills could check this over?
It might be
4 * (5/6) / 2 * ((25/36) + (1/3)) x 2 = 3,43
for rending, since 1 in 3 wounding hits are AP-6, not 1 in 6 wounding hits, and the armor save is only applied afte rthe hit has wounded.

It depends on when you do it. But straight from hits (which is I think what you're doing? Bit hard to follow without stat comparisons, which I'm not going to do at the moment), no - it's 1/6 of your hits is done as a rend. Which would then reduce your number of hits which go to normal wounds. You could do it after wounds instead I guess (however much of wounds is rend dam/sv, other fraction is normal dam/sv) - not sure which is 'better', though I do first.

[Threeshades]

Jun 1, 2017 14:40:12 GMT No One said:

Threeshades said:

This is what I came up with, I'm not sure if I applied the rending rule correctly. I may have not, the more I think about it. If someone with better math skills could check this over?
It might be
4 * (5/6) / 2 * ((25/36) + (1/3)) x 2 = 3,43
for rending, since 1 in 3 wounding hits are AP-6, not 1 in 6 wounding hits, and the armor save is only applied afte rthe hit has wounded.

It depends on when you do it. But straight from hits (which is I think what you're doing? Bit hard to follow without stat comparisons, which I'm not going to do at the moment), no - it's 1/6 of your hits is done as a rend. Which would then reduce your number of hits which go to normal wounds. You could do it after wounds instead I guess (however much of wounds is rend dam/sv, other fraction is normal dam/sv) - not sure which is 'better', though I do first.

1/6 of your hits rend, yes. But only half of your hits wound. So 1/3 of your wounding hits rend.

As I said it's measured against T6, Sv3+. Since that seems to be a common enough thing to get a good mean.

Let me elucidate the numbers a bit
4 Attacks * (5/6 Hits) / 2 for wounding half the time * ((25/36 saves that are made) + (1/3 saves that are ignored due to rending)) x 2 average Damage = 3,43

Let me also say I am a straight F math student.

[No One]

Threeshades said:

Let me elucidate the numbers a bit
4 Attacks * (5/6 Hits) / 2 for wounding half the time * ((25/36 saves that are made) + (1/3 saves that are ignored due to rending)) x 2 average Damage = 3,43

I think yours is wrong, it's late and I can't think straight. I get
4*5/6(hits)/3(wounds that don't rend)/3 (failed saves)+4*5/6/
6*2 (no. rends).
Anyway, 1.5 Dam. Unless AP-1, in which case 1.7.

Your way (from first sentence) should just be:

4*5/6(hits)/2(wounds)/3*2(amount of wounds non rending)/3 (failed saves) + 4*5/6(hits)/2(wounds)/3 (rends are 1/3 of wounds)*2 (extra Dam) = 1.5

[scriptum]

I hope this clarifies something, I took into account the rerrols to hit and wound, rending, etc... but mistakes are made








Briev conclusion: vs multiple wounds models the double scything talons are better, vs the rest the rending+deathspitter is the way to go imho (20 points cost difference)

[randychaz]

Are you able to decifer all that into a simple summary pls?