First stab at 1500. Still new to 'nids so CC please

[royalecheez]

Hello, new to thew boards and 'nids so thanks in advance for CC. Will be facing mostly imperial guard and necrons but need a list that can really speak to anyone as we travel to nearby stores on occasion. Also would love some input about using lictors effectively with mawlocs. From the forum surfing i have done that seems like it might be a nasty combo, just not totally sure how to employ it. 

CAD

HQ--
2x flyrants--480

Elites--
manlanthrope--xx
zoan--xx

Troops--
2xripper swarm brood, DS--90
3x 10 man termagant broods--120

Heavy--
2x mawloc

ALLIED FORMATION

Living artillery node--390

TOTAL--1495





Maybe drop a ripper swarm for a venomthrope?

[ptsgpbk]

I would say trygon may be a better option than mawloc, depends on your meta

[royalecheez]

May 19, 2016 10:35:32 GMT ptsgpbk said:

I would say trygon may be a better option than mawloc, depends on your meta

w

Thanks for the input. After reading the codex and surfing the forum the mawloc definitely seems like a better pick. Any reasoning behind the trygon? Any glaring problems with the list?

[ptsgpbk]

If you have lictors, mawloc is awesome. Depends on your meta as trygons do better in my opinion, but mawloc allows you to get it from reserve and blow up a unit, then get it out the way to get back into reserve, also allows to hit buildings. Trygon is stronger if running more smaller creatures due to synapse, or if running swarmlord or the likes which allows for buffs.

[ptsgpbk]

I would also shifting out termagants and rippers for a few units or large unit of hormagaunts and give them poison sacs, they are awesome if you can get into cc with them, either that or genestealers for a glass cannon approach, just make sure you have something big to stand in their way as protection

[No One]

royalecheez said:

Also would love some input about using lictors effectively with mawlocs. From the forum surfing i have done that seems like it might be a nasty combo, just not totally sure how to employ it.

Ignore the 'combo' - it's just a good way to get your lictors killed. You need to be within 6" at the start of your turn - basically the only way for that to happen is if you move within 6" on your previous turn, and then your opponent both a. didn't move away (and why not?) and b. didn't kill your 3 W 5+ sv model (if you had to get within 6", odds are good that there's no cover, but even at best that's a 3+).

Of course, it can also happen if they move within 6", but that'll usually be either for a charge or just the objective. If they charge you and you live though, you should be able to pull it off (hit and run, or ds right on top of your lictor - a necessary sacrifice ), but that's not the sort of thing you can plan for, and is also not reliable. Lictors are not survivable in combat - they're a harasser at best, any dedicated cc unit should wreck them.

That said, I believe it can work (lictor shame was a thing a bit ago) but it requires saturation of lictors+mawlocs to pull off - basically too many lictors scattered around the place to avoid/kill them all.

Lictors make great objective grabbers for maelstrom (basically rippers with better ds and no ob sec) and mawlocs are great for good save elite infantry/gunlines/distant enemies etc. Using them together is not a reliable strategy (though it'd probably make good area denial, forcing them to stay away or kill your lictors).

Trygons, on the other hand, are not incredibly dangerous (relatively - they will murder small squads and non-cc squads, but dedicated cc and large units will murder them or tie them up for a while) and are also prone to dying before doing anything. If you're ds, that's a big target right out in the open in front of your opponents entire army, just begging to get shot - which it will, and with only 3+ and no invul (probably no cover as well) that's not going to survive any sort of dedicated shooting/assault. Then that's 190 pts (230 if your grabbed the Prime) that didn't do anything. Mawlocs don't have that issue - they come up, do their thing (or miss) and then they're usually drawing firepower that isn't going into more immediately dangerous things (and them losing 5 wounds isn't an issue - just re burrow, do it again. Trygon loses 5 wounds, and then any assault is a gamble with overwatch and enemy attacks probably killing it, potentially before striking).

Anyway, other stuff:

ptsgpbk said:

also allows to hit buildings.

Umm? That's just straight to misshap (st 6, AV 14). Unless you mean ruins, in which case bottom floor only - not very effective there either.

Trygon is stronger if running more smaller creatures due to synapse, or if running swarmlord or the likes which allows for buffs.

T-Prime is better if running a swarm than not, but it's still not good - you've got better sources of synapse (mal, zoan) and better units to spend 230 pts on (like a mawloc. Mawloc+mal is less than t-prime, and so much better). Swarmy is also really quite bad - the buffs are not very helpful at all, very expensive, very fragile for his points (t6 with 3+), and slow (not even fleet).

I would also shifting out termagants and rippers for a few units or large unit of hormagaunts and give them poison sacs, they are awesome if you can get into cc with them, either that or genestealers for a glass cannon approach, just make sure you have something big to stand in their way as protection

Would not recommend this either - horms have a hard enough time getting to combat without all dying without having less due to wasting points with ts. It's so expensive that you're actually dealing less wounds for the same points of horms against t4 (with no benefit at all from ts against t3) and only slightly better against t5/t6.

Stealers are slow, expensive and fragile, which is a really bad combination on a cc squad (also no grenades). On top of that, they're not hugely dangerous compared to other dedicated cc squads, especially in the numbers you're likely to make combat in.

[ptsgpbk]

Fair points made, ive been playing in a casual environment, so best to listen to this guy for advice haha

[royalecheez]

May 19, 2016 14:52:53 GMT No One said:

royalecheez said:

Also would love some input about using lictors effectively with mawlocs. From the forum surfing i have done that seems like it might be a nasty combo, just not totally sure how to employ it.

Ignore the 'combo' - it's just a good way to get your lictors killed. You need to be within 6" at the start of your turn - basically the only way for that to happen is if you move within 6" on your previous turn, and then your opponent both a. didn't move away (and why not?) and b. didn't kill your 3 W 5+ sv model (if you had to get within 6", odds are good that there's no cover, but even at best that's a 3+).

Of course, it can also happen if they move within 6", but that'll usually be either for a charge or just the objective. If they charge you and you live though, you should be able to pull it off (hit and run, or ds right on top of your lictor - a necessary sacrifice ), but that's not the sort of thing you can plan for, and is also not reliable. Lictors are not survivable in combat - they're a harasser at best, any dedicated cc unit should wreck them.

That said, I believe it can work (lictor shame was a thing a bit ago) but it requires saturation of lictors+mawlocs to pull off - basically too many lictors scattered around the place to avoid/kill them all.

Lictors make great objective grabbers for maelstrom (basically rippers with better ds and no ob sec) and mawlocs are great for good save elite infantry/gunlines/distant enemies etc. Using them together is not a reliable strategy (though it'd probably make good area denial, forcing them to stay away or kill your lictors).

Trygons, on the other hand, are not incredibly dangerous (relatively - they will murder small squads and non-cc squads, but dedicated cc and large units will murder them or tie them up for a while) and are also prone to dying before doing anything. If you're ds, that's a big target right out in the open in front of your opponents entire army, just begging to get shot - which it will, and with only 3+ and no invul (probably no cover as well) that's not going to survive any sort of dedicated shooting/assault. Then that's 190 pts (230 if your grabbed the Prime) that didn't do anything. Mawlocs don't have that issue - they come up, do their thing (or miss) and then they're usually drawing firepower that isn't going into more immediately dangerous things (and them losing 5 wounds isn't an issue - just re burrow, do it again. Trygon loses 5 wounds, and then any assault is a gamble with overwatch and enemy attacks probably killing it, potentially before striking).

Anyway, other stuff:

ptsgpbk said:

also allows to hit buildings.

Umm? That's just straight to misshap (st 6, AV 14). Unless you mean ruins, in which case bottom floor only - not very effective there either.

Trygon is stronger if running more smaller creatures due to synapse, or if running swarmlord or the likes which allows for buffs.

T-Prime is better if running a swarm than not, but it's still not good - you've got better sources of synapse (mal, zoan) and better units to spend 230 pts on (like a mawloc. Mawloc+mal is less than t-prime, and so much better). Swarmy is also really quite bad - the buffs are not very helpful at all, very expensive, very fragile for his points (t6 with 3+), and slow (not even fleet).

I would also shifting out termagants and rippers for a few units or large unit of hormagaunts and give them poison sacs, they are awesome if you can get into cc with them, either that or genestealers for a glass cannon approach, just make sure you have something big to stand in their way as protection

Would not recommend this either - horms have a hard enough time getting to combat without all dying without having less due to wasting points with ts. It's so expensive that you're actually dealing less wounds for the same points of horms against t4 (with no benefit at all from ts against t3) and only slightly better against t5/t6.

Stealers are slow, expensive and fragile, which is a really bad combination on a cc squad (also no grenades). On top of that, they're not hugely dangerous compared to other dedicated cc squads, especially in the numbers you're likely to make combat in.

Great! Thanks for the knowledge and explanations. So would the list I've wrote be a good jumping off point then? Something semi solid that could really face anyone?

[No One]

Yeah, definitely looks solid enough.

[almostmercury]

I'd like to see 20 Gargoyles instead of Termagants. But I really do like the living artillery node. It may not be LVO material, but it is semi competitive.

Some people hate on the exocrine, but it's really a matter of variance. The exocrine will consistently put out a wound or two after saves, whereas models like the carnifex (please do not swear) the bed as often as they put out 4 wounds.

[gigasnail]

i don't hate on it from any deep seated irrational hatred, i hate it because it's a mediocre unit at the very best. the only time an exocrine puts out more wounds than dakkafex is against 2+/5++ models standing in the open. thhhhaaat's it.

LAN is ok. it's still ground nids, but if you're in a place where ground nids don't get insta-deleted, it'll do well.

echoing above posters, trygon is junk. a dimachaeron is 10 points more and vastly superior and still isn't a great unit due to movement speed and lack of invul/non-gimmicky FNP.

if you take lictors, they're there for scoring and harassment. if you ever get the mawlock/lictor combo off, it's a bonus. don't risk the lictors/give up KP to try it.

OP: your list is fine, especially for a first run at it. good luck!

[No One]

gigasnail said:

the only time an exocrine puts out more wounds than dakkafex is against 2+/5++ models standing in the open. thhhhaaat's it.

Unless I'm failing at matthammer, it also does more wounds against T6/3+ (or better) without cover/invul (9 hits, 4.5 wounds, 1.5 failed saves vs 4 hits, 2.67 wounds (2 if moved)) but that's pretty damn unlikely (T6 is usually going to be nids/daemons (cover/jink and/or hard to hit) or riptides (5++ at worst)). Also better against wraithknights without a cover/invul save.

almostmercury said:

Some people hate on the exocrine, but it's really a matter of variance. The exocrine will consistently put out a wound or two after saves, whereas models like the carnifex (please do not swear) the bed as often as they put out 4 wounds.

...I'd go the other way actually - dakkafex has 12 dice with twin linked, and the higher your number of 'trials' the closer you become to the 'average' i.e. the less deviation you have - with that many dice+rerolls, statistics are far more reliable. Exo has half that, thus is more prone to variation for hits+wounds (the only advantage it has is no possible variation on armour saves, but people hide their models from ap2 - heck, I usually find people hide their models from my ap-). Not letting your opponent have saves isn't much help if you only get 1 hit, and ignoring armour doesn't help much if they then take a 5++ or 4++.

This also gives a lot more reliability on the hit rolls against flyers.

[royalecheez]

I don't play in a super competitive environment. I may in the future but for now it's just me and a couple of my mates. With the occasional trip to our local gw store for some pick up games and small tournaments. I just want to make a list that will not get shat on repeatedly and can take a run at anyone.

[royalecheez]

Also is there any way to get gargoyles to be ob sec without skylight?

[No One]

Yeah - LAN should do fine in a semi-competitive environment. It's when you get up into more competitive stuff that you'll want to just drop it and go with more flyrants.

Nope. Currently the only way to do that is with the harpy tax (and with the new FAQ, the everything tax for non-ds gargs if you deploy them T1...).