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Post by gigasnail on Apr 30, 2016 21:04:15 GMT
ok.
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Post by pedro009 on Apr 30, 2016 21:17:12 GMT
Eh? If u think i'm wrong say so...long as you back it up with facts i'm open minded to hear other thoughts...
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 30, 2016 21:28:54 GMT
if you think the game is ok, and their business practices are ok (which is summed up by "we don't have to do market research, you will buy our product you miserable peasants!") we're going to have to agree to disagree. it's as simple as that.
take our codex as an example. new book, new units. crone is good, rest of the new units are hot garbage. nothing done to correct the long-standing issues with entire swaths of existing units (except rippers, tfex and venomthropes, good moves there). tervigon massive nerf. # of attacks nerf. flyrants got a small boost, yay. loss of book powers, because reasons. swarmlord unusable. army wide special rule turned into a handicap (my termagants ran off the board when shot at. thanks, instinctive behavior!). loss of drop pods and special characters (though pods were brought back with some mobility but massively overcosted to the point of near-uselessness and terrible rules).
it was unforgivably bad. still, because i had years and $$$ invested at this point, i bought some of the new models and tried them out. the new flyrant and tervigon/tfex kits were good, so i got a few of those too. before shield of baal and the pods/mucolids/toxicrene release, i spent a total of $300, including the price of the codex, on new tyranids after the release.
i would have spent $700-1k, if not more, had the new units not been trash. i mean, i guess it's 'working' because i'm still playing/building and i spent some cash, but i wouldn't call loosing out of 75% of sales working well.
edit: and it wasn't just the tyranid faction that got this treatment. dark eldar, AM, orks, and BA got the shaft as well. you could probably add GK to that list, they have two uses (draigo for deathstars and nemesis strike force).
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Post by slithernaut on Apr 30, 2016 21:31:45 GMT
Yet they are still turning a profit...albit a reduced one...so the system has been working Profit smofit, anyone with a touch of financial sense wants to see growth.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 30, 2016 21:32:53 GMT
i will certainly grant that in the last five weeks or so, there are signs of someone with common sense taking ahold of the tiller and trying to right the ship. let's see where it goes now.
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Post by pedro009 on Apr 30, 2016 21:39:05 GMT
I just said i am looking at other games systems Giga...because of the failings in the game...did you miss that point?
And i don't think their business practise is okay....just that at has kinda worked. They are still open, turning a profit, bringing out new stuff (some seems pretty good). So it is working....but there lack of concern for their client base is an issue that they have never seemed to be bothered about.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 30, 2016 22:01:11 GMT
and if your view is that this is working well for them, like i said, we'll have to agree to disagree, and move on.
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Post by purestrain on Apr 30, 2016 23:13:08 GMT
I want godloc. No scatter Why catalyst says friendly codex: tyranids but onslaught only says friendly units :/
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Post by biomassbob on May 1, 2016 4:44:24 GMT
if you think the game is ok, and their business practices are ok (which is summed up by "we don't have to do market research, you will buy our product you miserable peasants!") we're going to have to agree to disagree. it's as simple as that. take our codex as an example. new book, new units. crone is good, rest of the new units are hot garbage. nothing done to correct the long-standing issues with entire swaths of existing units (except rippers, tfex and venomthropes, good moves there). tervigon massive nerf. # of attacks nerf. flyrants got a small boost, yay. loss of book powers, because reasons. swarmlord unusable. army wide special rule turned into a handicap (my termagants ran off the board when shot at. thanks, instinctive behavior!). loss of drop pods and special characters (though pods were brought back with some mobility but massively overcosted to the point of near-uselessness and terrible rules). it was unforgivably bad. still, because i had years and $$$ invested at this point, i bought some of the new models and tried them out. the new flyrant and tervigon/tfex kits were good, so i got a few of those too. before shield of baal and the pods/mucolids/toxicrene release, i spent a total of $300, including the price of the codex, on new tyranids after the release. i would have spent $700-1k, if not more, had the new units not been trash. i mean, i guess it's 'working' because i'm still playing/building and i spent some cash, but i wouldn't call loosing out of 75% of sales working well.edit: and it wasn't just the tyranid faction that got this treatment. dark eldar, AM, orks, and BA got the shaft as well. you could probably add GK to that list, they have two uses (draigo for deathstars and nemesis strike force). To add to this, I stopped playing shortly after the release of the nid 6th ed dex and only recently started playing 7th to a very limited extent - with the models i already had. Yes I bought new models (plastics gargs, raveners and flyrant) and some others years ago even though our 5th ed dex was garbage. But even before the release of the 6th ed nid dex mess I stopped GW models. I would have liked to. I would have bought pyrovore models for example if the rules were decent, along with other models. For many of us good rules would mean purchases of GW models and money for GW. Yes many players are fine with the current situation but many have bought less and less which is obviously not good for GW. And the saddest part is that with a good effort in a dex and proper errata to correct mistakes of poor rules/stats/point costs making most of the dex decent (not hard) would cause nid players to buy more models.
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Post by blackrainbow on May 1, 2016 5:24:52 GMT
I have enough models still on sprue and those assembled that need paint to keep me happy hobbying for a while. Even have secondary (and tertiary) armies should I feel the need. Of all of those, new models for Sororitas are really the only thing I'd buy at this point, maybe a second Crone. Maybe.
I'm happy with the history and fluff GW has given us (mostly, Swarmlord beat Calgar end of story now stop adding to it) and I love the models. While a tournament in the future that requires a hardcover book will make me pass when we get our updates, I am at a happy place with my collecting as I think many are. Sure big changes will shake some things up a bit, but I feel the a good chunk of the fan base with the income to buy what they want already have it. The rest can be obtained from ebay or w/e. I am happy to see GW make moves in a good direction, but they have been what they are, and have been for too long of a time for me to trust them.
Good moves will give the older players more motivation to provide positive input to the new players. That is what keeps things going, how we interact with each other. Rules, sure we use them, but talking about the great games and spending time on the table is what it boils down to no matter what type of player you are. If GW changes and makes for a more positive experience, if they treat us as more than just a cash tree to throw plastic toys at until we're bled dry and disparaged and move on, yes treat me well as a customer and I will buy that next hardcover codex instead of internetting it (and then choosing a fandex). Don't be lazy GW, rear in your beast of rules. Give every one, not just us, not just yourself, give all what they deserve, a damn good game with a semblance of balance.
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Post by krede on May 1, 2016 10:43:43 GMT
Here is the hard fact : people play GW games DESPITE of the rules,not because of them! (I do it myself, go figure) The reason is the back story and the fact that warhammer is the system people around here know and sometimes remember from their youth (like me).
New systems such as "beyond the gates of antaris" always burn out after a while even though they have vastly better rules.
To me it is perfectly clear that all the (please dont swear) GW drops on us I solely due to Incompetence/no priority on rules writing, and need to get the quick cash. They can't afford to support ranges that nobody aren't all ready buying... so we end up with yet another spacemarine release.
The funny thing is, that if they wanted, GW could easily hire in experts to do a set of modern rules with beginner and advanced levels (like in the past) that would cater to both new and old players and sweep the competition away if it was just nearly as good as the best systems out there.
They have all the tools they need to do that and it would only cost them the same as a couple of model releases.
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Post by gauntlet on May 1, 2016 12:07:36 GMT
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Post by biomassbob on May 1, 2016 14:17:19 GMT
Good moves will give the older players more motivation to provide positive input to the new players. That is what keeps things going, how we interact with each other. Rules, sure we use them, but talking about the great games and spending time on the table is what it boils down to no matter what type of player you are. If GW changes and makes for a more positive experience, if they treat us as more than just a cash tree to throw plastic toys at until we're bled dry and disparaged and move on, yes treat me well as a customer and I will buy that next hardcover codex instead of internetting it (and then choosing a fandex). Don't be lazy GW, rear in your beast of rules. Give every one, not just us, not just yourself, give all what they deserve, a damn good game with a semblance of balance. While true to some extent - that good moves by GW will give older players reason to motivate new players, it can also not be enough. I would never recommend 40K to anyone. Rather i would warn them off. GW needs to do more than just a few good moves they have to make some large efforts and do so continuously. We have seen many 'good moves' by GW - and sure some of us would debate whether x or y was a good or bad move - so when GW started releasing dexes faster so that it looked like all armies would get a new dex for a new edition I would say that was a good move. But then after releasing a few dexes at a certain power level they shifted gears with strength of the later dexes and now dex release has slowed considerably and now there are doubts that armies dexes will come out at all but will be replaced with supplements. I don't see this overall as a 'good move' as it screwed over many players: those getting an underpowered dex that may not be properly updated for the rest of 7th or maybe not even the next edition (eg CSM) or those that have a dex from a previous edition and/or have a dex that is garbage with bits all over the place that may not now get a dex to do the army justice (eg nids). Players have various reasons they play 40K or would like to play it again. 'Good moves' have to be part of the whole picture of a larger 'good move' of making 40K a good game with relatively balanced rules/armies so customers do not feel jerked around and burned. That means GW has a long road to convince some of us they are changing for the better rather than a momentary blip of something we like soon to be followed by a kick in the hibatchi. I like the models and some of the fluff behind 40K and want it to be a good game as I see it having such potential. But as it stands today, if down in my FLGS there was a group that played the old Avalon Hill board games with cardboard counters (I have a pile of those games and played them for decades) I would dump my 40K stuff into a box in a heart beat and store it for better days or sell it (as I did with my Tau and SM armies - kept nids as they were always my favourite). So hopefully GW really starts communicating with their playerbase, starts doing market research, brings back errata, does proper playtesting and creates relatively balanced rules (or hires a company to do it if they feel they cannot do it themselves - but then fire the most of the game designers then as they serve no purpose).
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Post by gauntlet on May 1, 2016 16:43:15 GMT
Good moves will give the older players more motivation to provide positive input to the new players. That is what keeps things going, how we interact with each other. Rules, sure we use them, but talking about the great games and spending time on the table is what it boils down to no matter what type of player you are. If GW changes and makes for a more positive experience... While true to some extent - that good moves by GW will give older players reason to motivate new players, it can also not be enough. I would never recommend 40K to anyone. Rather i would warn them off. GW needs to do more than just a few good moves they have to make some large efforts and do so continuously. We have seen many 'good moves' by GW This is my general rule, when I've been burned. I won't deal with the company that burned me and I will warn everyone I meet about them. The company will only return to my good favours when they have corrected the problem and a they must also be good for a time, equal to the amount of time they have upset me. Typically it takes twice the length of time I was upset for the company to 1) internally admit to themselves and move to correct the problem, then 2) start the clock to satisfy my requirement for an equal period of good behaviour. However the process can be short circuited if they apologize and give full disclosure why it went wrong, how they have excised the malady, and give a full disclosure of timetable for future good behaviour. After Nids and End Times I likely won't be recommending GW to anyone for at least a decade. I've never known a company to take the route of losing face via an apology and full disclosure of future plans. But if you remember what I said previously. GW don't really care what I think or what existing customers think.
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Post by pedro009 on May 1, 2016 16:59:12 GMT
Most of these topics do end in slagging of GW but these has really devolved into quickly.
For many it might be best to take a step away. Not worth this anger (unless of course your do enjoy moaning about GW)
There are plenty of other systems out there that wnt your money but...even better...actually are invested in their player base.
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