GW rules writing is sneeky crafty git

[blackrainbow]

So the tittle is a bit of the goblin player in me, but to the point: So the more any person participates in any one thing, the more that thing becomes part of their life. The more you run, the more of a runner you are; the more you read, the more of a reader you are - the more you practice or participate in something the more and more and more it becomes part of your life.

So, if GW intentionally writes poor rules and rules that contradict one another, and spreads them out over many many (many many many) supplements, well a person has to wade through a ton of GW products and chat and talk and argue rules as written vs rules as intended just to get an idea of whats' going on. Having GW become more and more a part of their life. Beyond just a hobby.

Do they not care about rules? Though recently they seem to be drifting away from this idea, they have for a long time shown themselves to be "a model company" and not a games company. Are they lazy and slothful and full of bottom-line greed, sticking to a "sell plastic crack, the rest be damned!" mindset, not devoting the time or resources to keep everything in line with each other? You can still do this and have things spread out in different books, and update chunks as time progresses. It just takes effort - see huge gaps in codex releases and overlap in codex:edition alignment.

Or have GW languished in rule creator turnover so much and with those same rule creators having limited exposure or even an idea what the product is they are writing for and how it is used, that decades of this have piled and piled upon the flotsam of clarity we have before us now? Can anyone save us?!


So I put to you: conspiracy, lazy, or beast out of control?

[omfgitsg00]

I am pretty torn on this. On the one hand some of the rules writing is just lazy, like leaving out a single word that would make things super clear. Like just now taking questions for FAQs that should have been done god knows how long ago.
OTOH some of them do seem a bit malicious, like tax units in formations that are absurd and seem like they are just pushing models.
I think it is probably a combination of the two.

[gigasnail]

Do not attribute to malice what can be accounted for with stupidity?

[blackrainbow]

Sure, but can't it be both?

[Deleted]

I think it's a lot of things.

-Multiple rules writers taking different directions(too many cooks).
-No concise aim/goal of how "good" a codex should be. Aka I think the rules are written largely in a vacuum not properly considering unit interactions with allies and other stuff.
- Incomplete/ half-written rules
- POSSIBLY lack of creative control? I don't know what kind of peer editing other designers enforce on their fellow writers, nor do I know if writers get rules authority or they have some sort of template they must aim to reach/what they're told they can't do
-and the nail in the coffin, laziness which causes the above problems to snowball

[N.I.B.]

Apr 27, 2016 19:17:29 GMT blackrainbow said:

So the tittle is a bit of the goblin player in me, but to the point: So the more any person participates in any one thing, the more that thing becomes part of their life. The more you run, the more of a runner you are; the more you read, the more of a reader you are - the more you practice or participate in something the more and more and more it becomes part of your life.

So, if GW intentionally writes poor rules and rules that contradict one another, and spreads them out over many many (many many many) supplements, well a person has to wade through a ton of GW products and chat and talk and argue rules as written vs rules as intended just to get an idea of whats' going on. Having GW become more and more a part of their life.

So GW's insidious plan is to hook customers to the game by confusing them? Neil Strauss for toy soldiers? If that really would have worked, we would see it everywhere on the market.
There comes a point when appaling imbalance and obviously untested new rules leads to frustration that overcomes your love for the game, at that point you will spend your evening playing Age of Wonders 3 instead of anything 40K related.

If my car has lots of faults and I have to spend a lot of time interacting with the insurance companies, the car mechanics and the car dealer, and pay lots of money for things that aren't really working that well, all the while getting treated with patronage, I'm not inclined to buy another car from the same company the next time.

GWs stance for many years now has been 'we couldn't care less about your balance problems or unclear rules'. As long as we had the FOC slots and before allies and formations, things were still ok because players could take it upon themselves to balance the game in a reasonable manner. This has become much harder to do -> frustration -> Age of Wonders 3

Apr 28, 2016 3:12:57 GMT @nidsinrva said:

-No concise aim/goal of how "good" a codex should be. Aka I think the rules are written largely in a vacuum not properly considering unit interactions with allies and other stuff.

This is the big one.

Apr 28, 2016 3:12:57 GMT @nidsinrva said:

-Multiple rules writers taking different directions(too many cooks).

Probably true, but a logic following of lack of game design policy (external and internal balance of factions).

- POSSIBLY lack of creative control

It's been 'confirmed' that model designers pretty much are instructed to drop their latest work on the rule designers desk and say 'here, deadline in two weeks'. Apparently they haven't even been allowed to work together under the previous CEO. Hence we have the Malfunctor, Toxicrene and Tyrannocyte. New, useless units. Useless because if they don't play test stuff, they have to err on the side of caution. Unless it's space marines.

[swarm492]

I went with conspiracy, not because I think GW tries to give some units or codex'es the shaft, but because I heard awhile ago unit rules are influenced by sales expectations. And if that is indeed true, then the games rules and unit design is being artificially influenced to meet an additional expectation/agenda. I.E conspiracy.

[gauntlet]

It is like what the original poster says, but not a conspiracy, just obvious marketing.
Always remember this one important point.

GW products are designed to attract new collectors, boys aged 15, who will be a customer for 3 years only.

Many make the mistake that Forge World, Supplements, Black Library are there to add depth for veteran players, they are not.

The supplements, formations, big models, are there to gouge money from new starters when they make their 2nd purchase. All the extra armies, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau are not for depth. They exist to entice SciFi fans who would otherwise avoid buying unless the theme is Geiger Xenos, Schwarzenegger Terminators, Gun dam wing. (They are missing a trick not having Jedi? )

New starters aren't in the hobby long enough to care about good rules and balance.
For example, take the new starter in my street. Aged 17, has been playing for two years. Read a lot of Horus Heresy novels. He plays Tau, knows every power trick from Forge World and Imperial Armour, he wants the lot but can only next afford, a StormSurge, mainly to get peer admiration stomping his Friends. He got Betrayal of Calth for Xmas. He's starting to realize the limited depth GW has to offer and will likely give up in a year, when exams and girls take over.

Everyone on forums has emotional investment in GW products. To enable you to detach yourself from the emotion compare to other toy manufacturers. Like Barbie Dolls or Transformers.

Barbie dolls are aimed at young girls and the manufacturer only expects afew years custom until the girls grow out of the product. The manufacturer hopes to sell an initial doll, some different coloured/themed outfits, a transport and a Barbie Ken. Perhaps tie-ins with Disney movies etc. Not effective to develops a deep background for adults.
All toys have customers who fail to mature and continue to play with plastic dolls into adulthood. These persistent customers are of no importance to the manufacturer, they don't outweigh the 10000 times more spent by new starters.

With the above in mind, all GW actions become more reasonable. Even Tom Kirby's, para-phrasing; Depth of rules is a waste of effort, our customers want to impress their peers with plastic dolls.
The above totally justifies scrapping WHFB in favour of End Times and Age of Sigmar.

As a veteran I accept the above, but find it annoying I am not the target market for GW products.

GW's strength is in variety of models and breath ( not depth ) of 40k background.

What the competition, especially Fantasy Flight Games has demonstrated, good games rules can replace an elaborate backstory, and Tournaments ( and veteran players ) have a role as substitution for expensive TV Adverts or high street retail outlets. (Edit: Board games are popular money spinners and an intro product)

TLDR: it's for kids. Lead them on for a while and entice them to buy. It's obvious marketing, not a conspiracy.

[blackrainbow]

gauntlet you may have a point if not for your last line, as GW has stated, nay, boasted that they do no market research. Past that, yeah, marketing is the easy devil.

[brucelich]

Gauntlet's argument makes a whole lot of sense but theres one thing which i dont gripe.

If you only want to lure in new comers, why bother with so many releases? I mean, based on the assumption that a teenager has limited budget and that his "active" period is of 3 years, there isnt that much money thats going to come out of an average client.

Factor in the costs of designing new models and all of a sudden, it doesnt feel like the return on investment is that high ovr the years.


I havent conducted any marketing research mind you... so this is entirely an opinion of mine. But it sure as hell seems like an odd business model to me. I get your reference to barbies and such but the retrictive costs of our hobby seems to indicate more of an "long term " commitment...


Enjoyed reading through your post though...

[gigasnail]

little timmy isn't their main customer:

www.totellstories.com/40k/

[hiveminded55]

This canadian survey is great. I'm in Toronto, so this probably represents my area well.

People just want some consistency and support. Worry about designing new models in a year or two. Balance the meta. Clear up the rules. Faqs. It would be appreciated.

[blackrainbow]

While that "survey" is nice and does generally reinforce what I feel many would agree with, there are many holes and flaws (that the full data might alleviate) that could distort some aspects of it. Not that this survey is any better, but I at least know it is in the spirit of fun and to be taken lightly and as a time-killer.

[hopewell]

A very interesting survey I must say; Although I only ever read people's opinion of GW's marketing strategy online, that opinion is relatively consistent and is completely contradicted by this. Cheers giga, good read!

[gauntlet]

Apr 29, 2016 1:56:43 GMT gigasnail said:

little timmy isn't their main customer:

www.totellstories.com/40k/

The survey analysis begins by saying, of respondents,
54% were 30 years or over
50% have been playing for over 10 years.
10% have been playing for less than a year.

This is perhaps typical of what I see at the local wargaming club (who mostly only play 40k for nostalgia) but not typical sort of people I see keen to play and discuss what to buy next.

The survey (Edit: sample is bias, not the people analyzing the results. No loss of kudos intended. Good Job!) is biased or it could mean that in the last 10 years the people buying from GW has decreased to one fifth.