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Post by doomreaper9 on Feb 2, 2016 8:14:19 GMT
You mentioned the 'c' word. Away with you. 3 days on the tree of woe. Take him away and burn him!!! I call heresy!!
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Post by steviebizzle on Feb 2, 2016 10:31:57 GMT
I looked at the rules for the Wulfen and I can't understand why people don't think they're terrible. They'd get eaten by Hormagaunts. Who the hell takes Hormagaunts?
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Post by theoneeyedmonster on Feb 2, 2016 11:34:53 GMT
I looked at the rules for the Wulfen and I can't understand why people don't think they're terrible. They'd get eaten by Hormagaunts. Who the hell takes Hormagaunts? I have 80 all crying to come out of the box..along with the rest of my tyranid army. I long for the hive mind to get its arse into gear and sort it's rules out so I can send forth my chitin hordes to devour worlds in the name of the hive.
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Post by steviebizzle on Feb 2, 2016 12:07:58 GMT
Who the hell takes Hormagaunts? I have 80 all crying to come out of the box..along with the rest of my tyranid army. I long for the hive mind to get its arse into gear and sort it's rules out so I can send forth my chitin hordes to devour worlds in the name of the hive. Such a shame as the Hormagaunts are one of my favourite models in the Nid range. If GW mess up Tyranids AGAIN, I will seriously take to complaining heavily on forums.
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Post by barbedsparky on Feb 2, 2016 12:49:38 GMT
I have 80 all crying to come out of the box..along with the rest of my tyranid army. I long for the hive mind to get its arse into gear and sort it's rules out so I can send forth my chitin hordes to devour worlds in the name of the hive. Such a shame as the Hormagaunts are one of my favourite models in the Nid range. If GW mess up Tyranids AGAIN, I will seriously take to complaining heavily on forums. You go girl. As that has worked so well up to now... j/k Hormas (as they are supposed to be) are the the epitome of the Tyranid army for me. Relentless tides of slashing scythes caring none for preservation or injury, striking down all before them by weight of numbers and tenacity driven by the eternal hive mind... oh wait... If these some of these rules might be somehow integrated into the next iteration of our codex then I can see a future in the game for Tyranids (and myself) otherwise I will just be left as a stalker and banner of bots here. That would make me a sad panda.
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Post by theoneeyedmonster on Feb 2, 2016 16:02:30 GMT
Such a shame as the Hormagaunts are one of my favourite models in the Nid range. If GW mess up Tyranids AGAIN, I will seriously take to complaining heavily on forums. You go girl. As that has worked so well up to now... j/k Hormas (as they are supposed to be) are the the epitome of the Tyranid army for me. Relentless tides of slashing scythes caring none for preservation or injury, striking down all before them by weight of numbers and tenacity driven by the eternal hive mind... oh wait... If these some of these rules might be somehow integrated into the next iteration of our codex then I can see a future in the game for Tyranids (and myself) otherwise I will just be left as a stalker and banner of bots here. That would make me a sad panda. Totes, I love the idea of hordes getting blown to bits, but relentlessly ploughing on. Sure they are made to die, but problem is..everything in the whole army dies pretty much at the same rate so.. Not much distinction between 'good' units you want to protect and 'crud' units that die easily (see why I did there? Lol) Ah time will tell. But if they put some of these rules into the nid rule sets they may actually get me to buy some models. Then 8th comes out and we are back to square one of course (like last time) lol
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Post by nurglitch on Feb 2, 2016 16:48:17 GMT
So take Hormagaunts. They're nice in Endless Swarms.
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Post by nurglitch on Feb 2, 2016 16:50:29 GMT
I looked at the rules for the Wulfen and I can't understand why people don't think they're terrible. They'd get eaten by Hormagaunts. 2 wounds a pop, standard FnP. Can easily get a 3++ invuln. Higher WS than H-gaunts. As fast as H-gaunts. And the SIGNIFICANTLY buff all units around them. More attacks, and every model you kill will swing regardless(depending on weapon loadout swinging twice in one round).
You'll need to intercept the blood claws charging around the wulfen, which are fairly likely to have a movement based buff.
Yes, you can bog them down. But I'd take the bet that h-gaunts won't beat them in CC. Heck, with counterattack, even if you charge them when they swing back they should butcher most standard h-gaunt squads.
I will say a lot of people's kneejerk response is that they're expensive. But these guys are a fairly offense heavy, above average survivable, and huge in terms of support to your army.
EDIT: and the hellfrost pistol option? Insane. Put a few of these on blood claws(we still don't know what can use the pistol) or other units charging alongside? sure it's 12" but it's str 8 ap1 hellfrost. Vehicles will weep, MC's will at bare minimum take a wound reliably.
As someone else said, these things compared to warriors or shrikes are just SO good imo.
Sorry, I think I missed where the new Wulfen had Synapse and 36" ranged guns... The thing about the Wulfen is that they're not only slower than the Hormagaunts, thanks to the Hormagaunts having Fleet and Bounding Leap putting them closer to a 12" move+run per turn, but they can't be recycled via Endless Swarm. Yeah, they've probably beat the Hormagaunts in close combat, but the Hormagaunts would remain Fearless thanks to Synapse, and the Hormagaunts would take some of the Wulfen down. It's not like Tyranids lack for AP4 guns, and tarpits/screens like Hormagaunts that can intercept the Wulfen. Let's consider a standard, basic unit of Wulfen attacking Hormagaunts, so that's 5 attacks each on the charge thanks to Rage, for 25 attacks at 3+, wounding on 2+, saving on 6+. That's twelve Hormagaunts wiped out. Let's further suppose we have bog-standard Hormagaunts, so there's 25 of them. Set them up in a nice little 3x8 block (and a spare...) to receive the charge, and they're attacking at the same time as the Wulfen. They're also I5, so they attack with 50 attacks on 4+, wounding on 5+, saving on 4+, FNP on 5+, for ~3 wounds, or one and a half Wulfen. The Hormagaunts lose by 9, but it doesn't matter because they're Fearless. Next fight sub-phase it's thirteen Hormagaunts vs four Wulfen. That's be another 1.4 wounds on the Wulfen, leaving them with 3, while they do have 12 attacks, leaving 7. By the third round we can expect 9 attacks from the Wulfen, and 14 attacks from the Hormagaunts. That'll be 3 Hormagaunts left, and probably another wound on the Wulfen. Finally in the fourth round of combat the Hormagaunts are wiped out, leaving 2.5 Wulfen who are then vapourized by a nearby Hive Tyrant by sheer number of wounds from Devourers. A roll of 4+ sees the Hormagaunts back in ongoing reserve. That's what we can expect if basic non-upgraded Wulfen on an open table charge a screen of 25 basic Hormagaunts. The Hormagaunts do their job, take the Wulfen out of the game for two game turns, which means that Tyranids have the initiative when that combat is over. Let's suppose the Hormagaunts have Toxin Sacs and the Wulfen all have Frost Hammers and Storm Shields. Then the Hormagaunts have 50 attacks hitting on 4, wounding on 4, saving on 3++, and 5+ Feel No Pain. Then they score 2.7 wounds, or one and a half Wulfen. We would see something pretty similar to last time thanks to the bonus from Poison being cancelled out by the Storm Shields.
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Post by silentrob on Feb 2, 2016 16:50:35 GMT
Wolfen Not only did they get the old fleet but they also revamped our old catalyst psychic power and made it apply constantly. Nids Hopefully they'll give us old fleet as well and new ways to enter the battlefield and close the distance. Something like giving the Trygon tunnel ability to the Mawloc when it doesn't hit an enemy unit would be nice. Making horde nids playable again would be great and fluffy. Otherwise a fandex will be required
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Post by theoneeyedmonster on Feb 2, 2016 17:43:30 GMT
That is a great set up, but reality is by the time you actually reach the wulfen you would have lost a good chunk of those hormagaunts to incoming fire, blast templates and bolter rounds from cross fire etc etc. You'd do very well to get 18 of those 25 into b2b. You also forget the shots taken in over watch friend. (Can be crippling and maybe cause you to fail)
Those are bog standard marines too, take into account weapon upgrades and storm shields tanked onto the front rank and you can have a high output unit.
Couple this that they could annihilate a fexen in 1 turn, I think for 150~180pts they are an extremely good investment. They are at i5 base, if they roll the +1i on their 'curse' you will just have a lot of smashed up hormo flavoured dog food.
Plus endless swarm is great if you are playing a 4x4. The problem is if you manage to roll to get them to come back..getting them into an opponent who is well set up to recieve that unit. As he finishes off any big boys/synapse left. They may come back t4/5 so not very helpful apart from to die. Oh that's a point. If there's no synapse they will also eat each other..
You cannot look at hormagaunts as a singular unit and compare to wulfen, they will most certainly lose every time, and you know what, I'd be ok with that if it gave me time to get something into tackle them but not much can!! My point is that they die in droves understandably..but so does the rest of the army now with things like grav knocking about and op formations (here's looking at you skyhammer)
If they dropped everything points wise again maybe, but then it just takes years to get through one turn of movement!
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Post by Carnikang on Feb 3, 2016 0:14:51 GMT
Let's consider a standard, basic unit of Wulfen attacking Hormagaunts, so that's 5 attacks each on the charge thanks to Rage, for 25 attacks at 3+, wounding on 2+, saving on 6+. That's twelve Hormagaunts wiped out. Let's further suppose we have bog-standard Hormagaunts, so there's 25 of them. Set them up in a nice little 3x8 block (and a spare...) to receive the charge, and they're attacking at the same time as the Wulfen. They're also I5, so they attack with 50 attacks on 4+, wounding on 5+, saving on 4+, FNP on 5+, for ~3 wounds, or one and a half Wulfen. Don't forget the attacks the dead Wulfen does at the end of the initiative step. That can matter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 0:57:32 GMT
Oh I agree, in a vacuum using the H-gaunts to tie them up is great. I'd almost say ideal, but if tying up is the goal I'd almost go cheaper via terms.
But once again I mentioned the support rules, because if you've been allowed to make that charge the space wolf player has messed up. I'm already envisioning lists with 3 ish units of Wulfen surrounded by blood claws(6+ squads, decent sizes, plays like a slightly slower but much more board control heavy cavspam list). And that's throwing out counter-attack on the entire list. They can bubble wrap units just as well as we can. To me relying on tying up ONE wulfen unit with that many points of H-gaunts is ALMOST as bad as trying to make a tyranid player fail a morale test by expecting to kill off multiple sources of synapse to a unit.
Or, one big unit without SS+TH but regular power weapons, with an allied lib conclave and casting invisibility on them.
Or in the scenario I mention with the blood claw spam list, trade one unit of CC wulfen for the ones with the salvo 2/3 missile launchers. Or those + a rear squad of long fangs specifically to deal with hordes(heavy bolter spam).
I'm not suggesting wulfen are the end all wtf good unit. I'd take wraithguard over them in a world where codex's mean nothing. BUT, they do so much to make the rest of the army so much better, even taking some questionable options and making them halfway decent.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 3, 2016 1:19:59 GMT
A whole damn lot can be tied up by blob squads of anything. That's not really news.
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Post by theoneeyedmonster on Feb 3, 2016 8:59:53 GMT
I almost forgot about the dead wulfen attack lol
I'd say they are one of the top tier units around, or top tier combat units anyway at least or their value.
I'm sure people will think of odd wizardry to break them further invisible etc
These would go nicely in that flying barge thing and lined up for charges butch slapping our best cc units.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 3, 2016 11:30:20 GMT
I almost forgot about the dead wulfen attack lol I'd say they are one of the top tier units around, or top tier combat units anyway at least or their value. I'm sure people will think of odd wizardry to break them further invisible etc These would go nicely in that flying barge thing and lined up for charges butch slapping our best cc units. Always getting to attack, often 2x, means they will easily be worth their cost.
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