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Post by topaxygourouni on Jun 11, 2015 10:52:35 GMT
Eldar jetbikes have 3+ armor or cover, you need psychers to improve that and then you can just target the other two jetbike units anyways. Force 6-8 saves and they will lose some bikes from 48" and out of LOS. It's actually our only way to outrange them. Cover for necrons doesn't mean much because you are a barrage weapon, and even if they get their save, you still are dealing reliable 48" damage. Just because the enemy has cover saves does not mean that biovores are bad. The same can be said for all non cover ignoring shooting in the game, would you say all shooting is bad because necrons are in cover? Competitive Tau uses markerlights, whether in suits or alone. And Biovores kill markerlights safely and easier than most other things in our book do.
Your points don't show that biovores are bad, they show that other armies have good saves. In that sense, devourers are also bad, because eldars have 2+ armors rerollable etc.
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Post by Kark on Jun 11, 2015 13:56:34 GMT
Eldar jetbikes have 3+ armor or cover, you need psychers to improve that and then you can just target the other two jetbike units anyways. Force 6-8 saves and they will lose some bikes from 48" and out of LOS. It's actually our only way to outrange them. Cover for necrons doesn't mean much because you are a barrage weapon, and even if they get their save, you still are dealing reliable 48" damage. Just because the enemy has cover saves does not mean that biovores are bad. The same can be said for all non cover ignoring shooting in the game, would you say all shooting is bad because necrons are in cover? Competitive Tau uses markerlights, whether in suits or alone. And Biovores kill markerlights safely and easier than most other things in our book do. Your points don't show that biovores are bad, they show that other armies have good saves. In that sense, devourers are also bad, because eldars have 2+ armors rerollable etc. As I stated earlier when You have first turn You might kill a couple of jetbikes. Next turn they will retaliate with scatter laser and obliterate biovores or any other unit. If You are not first, eldar jetbikes will have their buffs and biovores will not threat them. Same story with other armies that can cast invisibility, 4++, 4+FNP or other psychic powers. I disagree that biovores are the only way to outrange eldars. Mawlocs work much better, swooping tyrants and/or hive crones are also an argument. Cover is crucial because it negates AP4 and still allow 4+ save (aerial cover for ruins, barrage does not omit it). Units embarked on transports like necron warriors inside ghost ark can be shot by biovores, but they have default 4+ cover and rp, so very safe. Scouts inside speeder storm also have 4+ cover. Overall soft units will either have 4+ (or 3+ if can gtg) or will start in reserves. Tau uses suits. I have never seen any serious player running markerlights alone. Reason - to easy to get rid off and You don't need biovores for that. 2+/2+ is annoying but tyrants have also vector strikes that can ignore that. Mawloc also ignores 2+/2+ and cover saves. Having aerial tyranids (like 3 flyrants and 3 crones) give some chances against scatter fire, d artillery, CC armies like canoptek wraiths spam, wolfstars, RCSs, warlock conclave, WKs, IKs, soul grinder spam etc. I don't really have space for biovores in my armylist. They simply can't do any useful task.
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Post by faux on Jun 11, 2015 14:21:42 GMT
What kind of competitive environment do you people play where biovores are bad? Are there no Tau in your meta? Biovores decimate the markerlight drone teams from 48" away and completely cripple the tau efficiency. Biovores raep eldars, even with the new jetbike love out there. Biovores are pretty damm good at dealing with necrons. Biovores are maybe our best unit against the skiitari infantry lists. Biovores snipe characters. Biovores have double the range of practically everything else in our book. And the LAN is awesome because 1. you get your backfield synapse (with an added twin linked large blast), you get Exocrine which you were mostly going to use anyway because it's great and you get twin linked biovores. In the LAN the biovores are the second best artillery after the Wyverns, and that's because wyverns are crazy, not because biovores are bad. And I'm not even counting in the living bombs, which means that unlike other artillery, the biovores never actually miss. And pinning is just an icing on the cake. Seriously, if you think biovores are bad then you probably haven't used the LAN or have them targeted way too early. EDIT: And now that I think of it, biovores might be exactly what can kill lots of those new Deamonkin bloodletter units popping all over the place. Haven't actually tried that one though. What competitive play are you in for them to be good? Im not joking, Competitive play Biovores are a joke. In competitive every unit has to be exceptional at what they do or very good at Multiple things. Biovores are neither. A few Wounds from a far that needs to be baby sat is just awful. When you are looking at Dakka flyrants, Mawlocs, Lictors, Mucolids and maybe dakka fex, the survival and fire power is much lower. In Competitve play you will face, Wraithknights/Scatterbikes, Wyverns/Monicores, 3 Storm Ravens/3 Thunderfire cannons or 7-10 Drop pods, Knights, Teleporting Grav-Centurions with Invis or Invis DA Black Knights (20 TL-Plamsa Shots per turn) with Scar allies or Scouting Grav bikes. They are good for friendly games b.c they are a nice balance or useful and not to powerful.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Jun 11, 2015 14:49:27 GMT
Vector strike is only ap3 so it doesn't affect the eldar 2+/2+, and additionally it's only 1 hit. Mawlocs are great indeed, but 3 biovores are cheaper than 1 mawloc, have one more blast, work from the first round and work every round instead of every other round IF the Mawloc survives and don't actually miss even if they miss, whereas the Mawloc is a coinflip. So your Tau are playing suits without markerlights? Like they are playing you with BS 3 and cover saves allowed? I'm not saying that biovores will kill the suits (though they might), I'm saying that they will kill the markerlights and therefore cripple the Tau shooting potential. And I will repeat myself, the fact that Eldar can have 2+ rerollable does not mean that the biovores are bad. In the same sense all of our units are bad besides the mawloc and maybe the exocrine because they cannot penetrate the eldar psychic defense,along with most of the units in all other codexes. That's not a point or not of the biovore utility. In fact the biovores are the one unit we have that can actually survive the scatterbikes as it can fire from out of LOS. Lictors are not a good competitive unit. They performed exceptionally in very specific situations, very specific scenarios from a top strategist and against opponents that overlooked them. It's a one trick pony (admittedly two trick pony if you are that good a player apparently), but with the new Deamonkin, Skiitari/Ad mech and new eldar I seriously seriously doubt they can hold the fort much longer. Oh and biovores are more survivable than Lictors, just saying . I also don't really like Dakkafex, too slow and too fragile for what it might do IF it gets close enough to the enemy. Yeah, maybe I forgot to add that I do not like playing 8-10 FMCs not even in competitive, that's just not fun for anyone. I obviously understand that a double Skyblight is better than the biovores. What I am saying is that biovores are a good, cheap artillery unit that when placed in LAN outperforms most of our other options.
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Post by nurglitch on Jun 11, 2015 15:27:16 GMT
Vector strike is AP2.
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Post by TheHiveKing on Jun 11, 2015 16:01:57 GMT
In a competitive game should i run 3 biovores or an Exocrine?
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Post by topaxygourouni on Jun 11, 2015 16:16:19 GMT
In a competitive game should i run 3 biovores or an Exocrine? Add 3 warriors and you got yourself a LAN A competitive list begins with 2 dakka flyrants. It probably has 1-2 mawlocs and looks like minimum possible troops. Then you might want to think of your own meta and plan accordingly.
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Post by Anggul on Jun 11, 2015 16:51:02 GMT
I can rarely bring myself to write a list without them. They're just so useful for taking chunks out of enemy firepower as we advance. Even against marines the reduced casualties are partially made up for by them being more expensive than other things.
LAN is nice, but a trio of biovores is easy to fit into most lists whereas a LAN takes up a fair chunk of points.
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Post by Kark on Jun 11, 2015 17:45:42 GMT
Vector strike is only ap3 so it doesn't affect the eldar 2+/2+, and additionally it's only 1 hit. Mawlocs are great indeed, but 3 biovores are cheaper than 1 mawloc, have one more blast, work from the first round and work every round instead of every other round IF the Mawloc survives and don't actually miss even if they miss, whereas the Mawloc is a coinflip. So your Tau are playing suits without markerlights? Like they are playing you with BS 3 and cover saves allowed? I'm not saying that biovores will kill the suits (though they might), I'm saying that they will kill the markerlights and therefore cripple the Tau shooting potential. And I will repeat myself, the fact that Eldar can have 2+ rerollable does not mean that the biovores are bad. In the same sense all of our units are bad besides the mawloc and maybe the exocrine because they cannot penetrate the eldar psychic defense,along with most of the units in all other codexes. That's not a point or not of the biovore utility. In fact the biovores are the one unit we have that can actually survive the scatterbikes as it can fire from out of LOS. Lictors are not a good competitive unit. They performed exceptionally in very specific situations, very specific scenarios from a top strategist and against opponents that overlooked them. It's a one trick pony (admittedly two trick pony if you are that good a player apparently), but with the new Deamonkin, Skiitari/Ad mech and new eldar I seriously seriously doubt they can hold the fort much longer. Oh and biovores are more survivable than Lictors, just saying . I also don't really like Dakkafex, too slow and too fragile for what it might do IF it gets close enough to the enemy. Yeah, maybe I forgot to add that I do not like playing 8-10 FMCs not even in competitive, that's just not fun for anyone. I obviously understand that a double Skyblight is better than the biovores. What I am saying is that biovores are a good, cheap artillery unit that when placed in LAN outperforms most of our other options. First of all vector strikes are AP2 and ignores cover. It is one hit, but 6 FMCs=6 vector strikes. Secondary Biovores are not competitive unit because they have no targets to shoot at or they effectiveness is very low (in competitive game). That is all. PS: I understand that You may not like to spam FMCs, but my point was for competitive game only. At the very begining I stated that in friendly/fun game You may use biovores/LAN. In serious tournaments like grand tournaments or masterclass or championship games biovores are outclassed by other units. And You don't play such tournaments for fun. You play them to win.
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Post by Kark on Jun 11, 2015 17:49:44 GMT
In a competitive game should i run 3 biovores or an Exocrine? If by competitive You mean some serious tournament, neither biovores nor exocrine are good choices. Exocrines have nice S and AP, but short range, biovores have nice range but lame S and AP. Both units will die very easily. If by competitive You mean just tournament play, field whatever You want.
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 11, 2015 19:31:54 GMT
Kark and NIB have the right of it here. Ground Nids are going to have issues right now. Hope for a formation that gives them shred and ignores cover in the next dex.
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Post by nurglitch on Jun 11, 2015 19:34:17 GMT
Vector strike is only ap3 so it doesn't affect the eldar 2+/2+, and additionally it's only 1 hit. Mawlocs are great indeed, but 3 biovores are cheaper than 1 mawloc, have one more blast, work from the first round and work every round instead of every other round IF the Mawloc survives and don't actually miss even if they miss, whereas the Mawloc is a coinflip. So your Tau are playing suits without markerlights? Like they are playing you with BS 3 and cover saves allowed? I'm not saying that biovores will kill the suits (though they might), I'm saying that they will kill the markerlights and therefore cripple the Tau shooting potential. And I will repeat myself, the fact that Eldar can have 2+ rerollable does not mean that the biovores are bad. In the same sense all of our units are bad besides the mawloc and maybe the exocrine because they cannot penetrate the eldar psychic defense,along with most of the units in all other codexes. That's not a point or not of the biovore utility. In fact the biovores are the one unit we have that can actually survive the scatterbikes as it can fire from out of LOS. Lictors are not a good competitive unit. They performed exceptionally in very specific situations, very specific scenarios from a top strategist and against opponents that overlooked them. It's a one trick pony (admittedly two trick pony if you are that good a player apparently), but with the new Deamonkin, Skiitari/Ad mech and new eldar I seriously seriously doubt they can hold the fort much longer. Oh and biovores are more survivable than Lictors, just saying . I also don't really like Dakkafex, too slow and too fragile for what it might do IF it gets close enough to the enemy. Yeah, maybe I forgot to add that I do not like playing 8-10 FMCs not even in competitive, that's just not fun for anyone. I obviously understand that a double Skyblight is better than the biovores. What I am saying is that biovores are a good, cheap artillery unit that when placed in LAN outperforms most of our other options. First of all vector strikes are AP2 and ignores cover. It is one hit, but 6 FMCs=6 vector strikes. Secondary Biovores are not competitive unit because they have no targets to shoot at or they effectiveness is very low (in competitive game). That is all. PS: I understand that You may not like to spam FMCs, but my point was for competitive game only. At the very begining I stated that in friendly/fun game You may use biovores/LAN. In serious tournaments like grand tournaments or masterclass or championship games biovores are outclassed by other units. And You don't play such tournaments for fun. You play them to win. I thought we played in such tournaments for the fun of trying to win.
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Post by Kark on Jun 11, 2015 20:20:46 GMT
I thought we played in such tournaments for the fun of trying to win. It is like football (soccer) match. You can play it with Your friends for fun or You participate in world cup and go for the win.
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Post by jaysic on Jun 11, 2015 20:38:14 GMT
I love biovores, but I don't take them in my major GT lists due to points constraints. I don't get the "needs a backfield synapse" argument on a unit that has an assault barrage weapon. Just walk it up with your other stuff.
I'd also like to point out that
1) Not everyone is talking about playing in an ETC GT when they ask if something is good.
And
2) We haven't seen FMC spam win any major GTs.
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 11, 2015 21:04:26 GMT
Haven't seen ground based nids win any ETC GT, either.
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