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Post by cypheon on Apr 26, 2015 15:53:13 GMT
I'd rather just run genestealers at him since rending auto wounds on 6 with ap 2, bone swords don't ignore the knights armor, and you can spread them thin enough that stomp doesn't wipe the unit outright.
And regarding my previous statement about GC and ID, gc's rules trigger based on the attack, so when a bonesword rolls a 6 for ID, if the target was a GC, the ID is converted to multi-wound before you even roll armor/invuln saves (still only one armor/inmvuln save, though). So you never inflict an ID wound to ignore the FnP rule, you just inflict d3 wounds instead.
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Post by Kark on Apr 26, 2015 16:15:27 GMT
Bone swords do ignore WK armour, but shrieks are S4, so it is not enough to wound. As for ID, it deals d3 wounds instead, but still has ID special rules so no fnp.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Apr 26, 2015 16:15:43 GMT
I'd rather just run genestealers at him since rending auto wounds on 6 with ap 2, bone swords don't ignore the knights armor, and you can spread them thin enough that stomp doesn't wipe the unit outright. And regarding my previous statement about GC and ID, gc's rules trigger based on the attack, so when a bonesword rolls a 6 for ID, if the target was a GC, the ID is converted to multi-wound before you even roll armor/invuln saves (still only one armor/inmvuln save, though). So you never inflict an ID wound to ignore the FnP rule, you just inflict d3 wounds instead. So you believe if the Swarmlord lands a single hit, the WK is taking 3 invulnerable saves on his shimmershield followed by up to 3 FnP rolls? Why is it that a super heavy vehicle such as an IK doesn't take 3 invulnerable saves from a single lance that rolls an explode? The super heavy/GC 'no auto-death protection mechanic' is designed to come after saves.
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Post by xtztxtxz on Apr 26, 2015 16:27:47 GMT
I'd rather just run genestealers at him since rending auto wounds on 6 with ap 2, bone swords don't ignore the knights armor, and you can spread them thin enough that stomp doesn't wipe the unit outright. And regarding my previous statement about GC and ID, gc's rules trigger based on the attack, so when a bonesword rolls a 6 for ID, if the target was a GC, the ID is converted to multi-wound before you even roll armor/invuln saves (still only one armor/inmvuln save, though). So you never inflict an ID wound to ignore the FnP rule, you just inflict d3 wounds instead. Uh... 1) Boneswords are AP3, Wraithknights still have a 3+ save. In what world do they still get an armour save? 2) Here's how it works: Anything S4 or under will need Toxin Sacs to wound a Wraithknight. Shrikes with Toxin Sacs will always wound a WK on a 6+, so when using Boneswords those attacks will also always have the the Instant Death rule. That means the attack will ignore 3+ or worse armour, it will ignore FNP saves, but the target then gets to take an invuln save if it has one. If that save is failed or is not able to be taken, the target's wound count is reduced by D3 instead of by 1.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 26, 2015 18:23:24 GMT
and you can safely do the FMC blocker move, the WK doesn't have skyfire so its blasts from stomp shouldn't be hitting them. I'm not entirely shore of that. It's something my group was hashing out on Friday night. It's not a shooting attack, so skyfire wouldn't make a difference. The question I posed is how is it any different than a blast that drifts? I'm not sure it is. In short play testing TH/SS termies hold their own. I don't play power armour dexes so it isn't a solution for me, but I think it could make termies relevant again, which isn't a bad thing. Stomps cannot hit buildings, flyers, swooping FMCs, GCs, FGCs and all kind of super heavy vehicles. ^this. pg. 96 under stomps. for once, a concise answer out of the book. *shocking!*
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Post by hiveminded on Apr 26, 2015 23:17:30 GMT
I don't know that shrikes are really the answer to these things. You need 5 Lw/Bs shrikes with all their toys to kill one on the charge, and that's 505 points to kill 295...assuming no ID on overwatch or dying on the way to it. Massed gargoyles is probably our best bet here, stomps be damned. That, or several small/mid sized gaunts squads that charge in one at a time and "feed" the tarpit. How are you getting 505 points? Even with Toxin Sacs and Adrenals, five LW/BS Shrikes are still cheaper than a Wraithknight. I assume he meant to say 305, not 505. Five fully loaded shrikes are 305 versus a base wraithknight's 295 (or so the rumors said...I haven't seen the codex). Of course, you'll need to spend some extra points to give the shrikes a shielding unit and a shrouded bubble, so the total cost will be higher. And yes, as said above, a fully equipped shrike will: 1) attack before the wraithknight, 2) hit on 3s, 3) wound on 6's, 4) each wound will be instant death, causing d3 wounds and ignoring the wraithknight armour and FNP. It's not an ideal option, but it may be the best we have at the moment.
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Post by jaysic on Apr 27, 2015 2:28:14 GMT
I don't know that shrikes are really the answer to these things. You need 5 Lw/Bs shrikes with all their toys to kill one on the charge, and that's 505 points to kill 295...assuming no ID on overwatch or dying on the way to it. Massed gargoyles is probably our best bet here, stomps be damned. That, or several small/mid sized gaunts squads that charge in one at a time and "feed" the tarpit. How are you getting 505 points? Even with Toxin Sacs and Adrenals, five LW/BS Shrikes are still cheaper than a Wraithknight. Wups
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Post by liberame on Apr 27, 2015 4:42:24 GMT
I'm confused, why are shrikes hitting on 3's again? WK are WS5.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 27, 2015 5:36:30 GMT
not unless there was a stealth buff in WS; they should still be WS4.
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Post by xtztxtxz on Apr 27, 2015 6:25:45 GMT
Shrikes are WS5 I4 (before Lash Whips), Wraithknights are WS4 I4.
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Post by doomreaper9 on Apr 27, 2015 6:57:13 GMT
The one good draw back on the WK is it's a LoW. There won't be a spam of them on the field. Two to three at the most if the eldar player is playing two CADs or unbound. I can't wait to play against them to see how I would go about them. If at best I will just send in Dima and my bio Titan with 20 angry genestealers at it.
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Post by xtztxtxz on Apr 27, 2015 7:05:28 GMT
There's always the option to take the 'budget' load out for Shrikes; drop the Toxin Sacs, Boneswords and Lash Whips and instead take Rending Claws. You wouldn't be doing D3 wounds each time and a Wraithknight would still get the FNP save, but your Shrikes are about 50% cheaper per model. That's a lot more ablative wounds in the brood and it's also a more flexible loadout against other targets, such as vehicles.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 27, 2015 7:47:09 GMT
i did some shrike numbers the other day but can't find them now. doing sword/whip+ST vs. RC/ST:
running the numbers:
both units have 5 attacks on the charge, assuming adrenal glands for fleet.
BS+LW/ST, poison, frag, AG costs 61 ppm. RC/ST, frag, AG costs 43 ppm.
sword/whip shrikes strike first on I7 and do 10/18 instant death wounds (causing d3 wounds per), negating armor and FNP. five is iffy to kill in one shot (2.77 X d3 wounds), six is pretty likely (3.33 X d3 wounds) and seven will seal the deal for sure (3.88 X d3). you want to hit the lines with 5 at a minimum, six to be sure. 305 for 5, 366 for six, 427 for seven.
RC/ST shrikes will go simultaneously with the WK, doing 10/18 wounds each ignoring armor but allowing for FNP, coming out to 10/27 wounds per model that makes it into combat. 10 shrikes would only do 3.7 wounds after FNP and with max brood size of 9 you'd want to go two units of 5-6 each to make sure they get stuck in. 430 for 10, 516 for 12 (sweet spot). you'll likely loose two shrikes to the WK (S10 will insta gib them) and hopefully kill it before it stomps (or things could get ugly).
366 for six sword/whip/ST shrikes or 516 for 12 RC/ST shrikes. i think the sword/whip guys should win out here unless i've derped hard somewhere.
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Post by xtztxtxz on Apr 27, 2015 14:40:14 GMT
Point for point, LW/BS Shrikes are absolutely our most reliable hard counter for Wraithknights. However they're also expensive, fragile, and of limited use against other targets. TEQs, anything with a decent invuln or S8+ weapons will laugh at them, while most vehicles aren't going to sweat either.
Something I'm surprised not to have seen mentioned here are Raveners and Genestealers. They both have better init than a WK and can drop a decent number of Rending attacks with a better WS. Raveners have the mobility to catch a GC, while 'stealers can have ObSec and are cheap enough to take lots of them and block off areas of the table. While both choices are unlikely to kill a WK outright, they can help to control it's movements while fulfilling other roles.
The choice is really going to come down to your local environment. If Wraithknights end up getting spammed in competitive play to the point where they're more likely to be faced than not, then dropping 61ppm on Shrikes may well pay off. However if you're in a more casual scene or prefer some kind of TAC list you may consider a more flexible alternative.
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Post by slithernaut on Apr 27, 2015 16:08:27 GMT
Has Forgeworld restocked the warrior/shrike wings yet?
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