Sky tyrant swarm question

[shrike]

I want to field skytyrant swarm but the chance to give up 3 VP when destroyed is a bit disconcerting. I re-read the rules and it says it gives up 3 points when completely destroyed. Is this RAI? Does it mean that the victory points are only given upon the removal of the last model in this formation? Or does it give up 1 point per unit (ie 1VP per brood killed)

[bredkooler]

First, it only matters in kill point games. Second its one point for each unit 2 gargs 1 tyrant upon destruction of the whole unit. This is good as if even only one garg survives 3 points are denied.

[mattblowers]

It's not a very good formation. It looks good on paper, but it doesn't do so well. I got my teeth kicked in with it in a 3 round doubles tournament last Friday night. I took only 20 gargs and even still the footprint is so large as to make it a liability. It feels like it should work, but they are strange bedfellows that don't actually function very well together. Give it a go and let us know how it goes, but so far I'm really down on it. If they don't have a character you now have a T3 MC.

[nurglitch]

I took it to the first Maelstrom tournament at my local GW shop and won Best General, with two units of 15 equipped with Adrenal Glands. I think the rules work to mean you've only destroyed any of its constituents units once all its units have been destroyed. Maelstrom-wise it meant that people could score D3 off a three-unit kill, but nobody managed to kill it, and it did a wonderful job of gumming up the enemy. The trick, it seems, is to have the Tyrant leading the unit rather than hiding in back.

[cypheon]

Mar 3, 2015 19:13:18 GMT bredkooler said:

First, it only matters in kill point games. Second its one point for each unit 2 gargs 1 tyrant upon destruction of the whole unit. This is good as if even only one garg survives 3 points are denied.

Incorrect.   The formation special rules are very similar to the Tau Ethereal.  Your opponent gets the VP for killing the unit off regardless of the scenario type.  Imporant to note, though, they do have to kill every single model in the combined unit to get the VP from the formation rules.


Killpoint scenarios is where you'll end up arguing if you don't agree ahead of time how to handle a combined unit.   As the formation has you purchase each unit seperately then fielded as one, your opponent could argue that they're still seperate units on your army list and thus, 1 point each if wiped out.  and then a bonus of 3 more points as per the formation special rules if they manage to kill everything from it, as well.   in a tournament situation get it in writing, signed, in triplicate, from the T.O. before you start rolling on the first round.

[mattblowers]

Mar 3, 2015 19:53:46 GMT nurglitch said:

I took it to the first Maelstrom tournament at my local GW shop and won Best General, with two units of 15 equipped with Adrenal Glands. I think the rules work to mean you've only destroyed any of its constituents units once all its units have been destroyed. Maelstrom-wise it meant that people could score D3 off a three-unit kill, but nobody managed to kill it, and it did a wonderful job of gumming up the enemy. The trick, it seems, is to have the Tyrant leading the unit rather than hiding in back.

Good for you man. How'd you work that out? How can you eat wounds at T3?

[vortexdr]

Formation is (please do not swear) anyway...no clue what some people see in it....Majority T3 is pathetic....

[nurglitch]

mattblowers: Between Shrouding and Feel No Pain (Venomthrope and Catalyst), and the Tyrant's Jink saves, T3 absorbs wounds pretty well.

[yowster12]

Mar 3, 2015 19:59:17 GMT cypheon said:

Mar 3, 2015 19:13:18 GMT bredkooler said:

First, it only matters in kill point games. Second its one point for each unit 2 gargs 1 tyrant upon destruction of the whole unit. This is good as if even only one garg survives 3 points are denied.

Incorrect.   The formation special rules are very similar to the Tau Ethereal.  Your opponent gets the VP for killing the unit off regardless of the scenario type.  Imporant to note, though, they do have to kill every single model in the combined unit to get the VP from the formation rules.


Killpoint scenarios is where you'll end up arguing if you don't agree ahead of time how to handle a combined unit.   As the formation has you purchase each unit seperately then fielded as one, your opponent could argue that they're still seperate units on your army list and thus, 1 point each if wiped out.  and then a bonus of 3 more points as per the formation special rules if they manage to kill everything from it, as well.   in a tournament situation get it in writing, signed, in triplicate, from the T.O. before you start rolling on the first round.

Actually you are wrong. It says the entire unit counts as 3 UNITS for the purpose of victory points. And units for VP only count in kill points, it also states that they are treated as 1 unit so nobody can argue how many units it is.

The part in Caps is to direct your attention to that specific word.

[mattblowers]

Mar 3, 2015 20:17:54 GMT nurglitch said:

mattblowers: Between Shrouding and Feel No Pain (Venomthrope and Catalyst), and the Tyrant's Jink saves, T3 absorbs wounds pretty well.

That's a lot of IFs: IF you roll catalyst and get it off, IF your venomthrope keeps up. I don't like to take my chances on that many ifs.

[cypheon]

i swear i read it 3 times over and for some reason every time "3 units" was reading in my head as "3 victory points" every single time. this is why hypoglycemics shouldn't talk rules before lunch.

[N.I.B.]

I'm still undecided after 3-4 games, but leaning towards the formation being butt. A unit of 20 has so far easily been wiped out and the huge footprint has been a liability meaning things like Draigo has been able to catch it in combat. In most cases I'd rather have the Gargoyles as a standalone unit, and the T6 Meleerant jinking behind them. Or speeding up the table.
Plus in some tournaments around here, formations doesn't get Battle Brothers, so that nice 18" synapse is useless.

[gigasnail]

formations of the same faction not getting BB is...one of the dumbest rulings i've ever heard of.

i had to go back, i had originally typed 'the dumbest' but i remembered a few other doozies.

carry on.

[doomreaper9]

To really get a good feel for it is to fully equip the gargoyles with AG/TG. Equip the Flyrant normally but instead of ST, BS/LW or Reaper and AG. Both units of gargoyles need 20 to max number of models. This is the only way I found to make this formation somewhat effective. Other than that it's just cannon fatter for other units to get in and do damage.

[mattblowers]

Mar 4, 2015 7:31:07 GMT N.I.B. said:

I'm still undecided after 3-4 games, but leaning towards the formation being butt.

Pretty much. Good on paper, meh on table. Ranged is still king.