How Do You Deal With A Debbie Downer?

[That's Not Even My Name]

Hi-hi all! Selamat pagi!

I haven't been on this site in ages but I've gotten mad into 40k again recently and thought I'd mingle with the Hive once more. My problem is a weird one. It's not one I'm used to since I'm hardly the best 40k player in town. Simply put, how do you deal with a sore loser? The case in question is a really close friend of mine. We get along great and share lectures at uni but when it comes to games, boy, can he be a drag. I don't mind with short games or things that don't take too much time but, with 40k, it can be downright painful.

If at any point I have the advantage in the game for a long period of time he'll do this thing where his shoulders slump and he listlessly moves his models while speaking in a monotone voice if he speaks at all. It's very uncomfortable and makes the game terribly unfun. I mean, I get nobody wants to lose but it is a two player game. If he were winning, I'd be losing and vice versa. It's kind of how it works. But I'm almost afraid of pressing my advantage in case he gets upset and stops wanting to play.

I admit I've done it myself once or twice. Sometimes you can just have a bad day or be tired or whatevs but this is almost every game. Still, I'll always make the effort not to spoil another person's fun just because things aren't going my way. I'll make a new objective for myself like a last stand on one particular objective or a rush to take out the Warlord. Anything to make sure the game is just as fun for both of us. The other day he said something like, "I've decided I can't play this game for fun anymore. I'm going to have to make an army that wins instead." which to me sounded like "I don't have fun when I play with you." It kinda stung a bit. Another time he was having a tough turn and I suggested he take out my Venomtropes as they were exposed and he wasn't having much fun. He told me he didn't want me to 'shame' him if he tried and failed. I didn't even though what that was supposed to imply. He hasn't got many friends and I'm one of the few people he gets to play against so I'd feel bad turning down games or whatever but, frankly, I'm not having much fun either when it happens.

Just to note, my army isn't competitive at all. I run whatever I think looks cool in my mind. All Hormagaunts and Carnifexes and stuff. He plays Chaos Space Marines with a Heldrake. I also don't win all the time as he seems to claim. I have the better track record sure but it's probably around a 60-40 split at most.

Anyone had any experience with this kind of stuff in the past? I don't want to hurt his feelings but I'm getting kind of sick of it at this point. I make the effort to hang out and play with him when there are plenty of other things I could be doing because I know I'm one of the only people he lives near enough to play against but it seems like I'm just seen as an obstacle to his fun by him in every second game.

[mattblowers]

Feb 26, 2015 17:43:31 GMT That's Not Even My Name said:

Hi-hi all! Selamat pagi!

I haven't been on this site in ages but I've gotten mad into 40k again recently and thought I'd mingle with the Hive once more. My problem is a weird one. It's not one I'm used to since I'm hardly the best 40k player in town. Simply put, how do you deal with a sore loser? The case in question is a really close friend of mine. We get along great and share lectures at uni but when it comes to games, boy, can he be a drag. I don't mind with short games or things that don't take too much time but, with 40k, it can be downright painful.

If at any point I have the advantage in the game for a long period of time he'll do this thing where his shoulders slump and he listlessly moves his models while speaking in a monotone voice if he speaks at all. It's very uncomfortable and makes the game terribly unfun. I mean, I get nobody wants to lose but it is two player a game. If he's not winning, I'm losing. It's kind of how it works. But I'm almost afraid of pressing my advantage in case he gets upset and stops wanting to play.

I admit I've done it myself once or twice. Sometimes you can just have a bad day or be tired or whatevs but this is almost every game. Still, I'll always make the effort not to spoil another person's fun just because things aren't going my way. I'll make a new objective for myself like a last stand on one particular objective or a rush to take out the Warlord. Anything to make sure the game is just as fun for both of us. The other day he said something like, "I've decided I can't play this game for fun anymore. I'm going to have to make an army that wins instead." which to me sounded like "I don't have fun when I play with you." It kinda stung a bit. Another time he was having a tough turn and I suggested he take out my Venomtropes as they were exposed and he wasn't having much fun. He told me he didn't want me to 'shame' him if he tried and failed. I didn't even though what that was supposed to imply. He hasn't got many friends and I'm one of the few people he gets to play against so I'd feel bad turning down games or whatever but, frankly, I'm not having much fun either when it happens.

Just to note, my army isn't competitive at all. I run whatever I think looks cool in my mind. All Hormagaunts and Carnifexes and stuff. He plays Chaos Space Marines with a Heldrake. I also don't win all the time as he seems to claim. I have the better track record sure but it's probably around a 60-40 split at most.

Anyone had any experience with this kind of stuff in the past? I don't want to hurt his feelings but I'm getting kind of sick of it at this point. I make the effort to hang out and play with him when there are plenty of other things I could be doing because I know I'm one of the only people he lives near enough to play against but it seems like I'm just seen as an obstacle to his fun by him in every second game.

Another case of someone's self-worth being tied to how they are doing. We all struggle with it to some extent if you have even the slightest competitive streak. I'd try pointing out to him what's it's like playing someone who does that. I'm sure it's not fun for him either when he acts like that. Both can't win, but both can have fun if the game is in perspective. Most people would be open to hearing "you're acting all down again, what can we do to make it more fun?" Take a shot every time he gets down, would spice things up a bit. Neither of you will care who's winning before too long.

[Deleted]

Try to forge more of a narrative with him when his models do well at all.

I've had that gamer friend before. One of my friends got so angry about doing badly he nearly broke his toe kicking the wall(trust me, I know it sounds ridiculous, I was there). Those are the friends you need to give a nurturing hand to imo, try and dissect their codex. Emphasize what's good with them, what they did right. And at the end of the game, if you think they would have benefited from another tactical option you feel they didn't engage in, suggest it while emphasizing hindsight is 20/20.

If he remains a sore loser, there isn't much to be done other than disengage in such a manner that perhaps the person realizes the effect their gaming etiquette has.

[arapaima]

Yes usually the narrative that salted fluffy bunny chaos( or SM) player wanted is their marines standing on a carpet of nids corpse the height of MT Everest and their badass chaos lord ripping a hive tyrant's head off with his barehand. When the narrative does not translate to tabletop, butthurt occured and accusation are made of units being OP and it's more design flaw that got you winning on occasion then being fairly outplayed.

IMHO op, some folks at a certain age do take their win seriously. I was one of those in my younger days, and I regretedly made many games of different format unenjoyable by being such a schmuck. Now days I grow out of that (please do not swear) fun is what matters and I care less if my friend just gone 20-0 on me in the arcade. I hope your friend does too.

[misterdutch]

Sounds like your friend could have had some traumatizing childhood experiences that affect his sense of self-worth whenever he is doing badly. Perhaps he suffered from parents pushing him too much to be succesful, perhaps he was bullied at school, or something else made him feel inadequate and it became part of his 'emotional system' so to speak. This can be difficult because such behaviour takes a long time to correct and he is the one that needs to realize his behaviour isnt right, and he needs to be the one that wants to change. I suggest speaking to him openly and honestly about his behaviour. Also, as often is the case with interaction between two people, it could be that you are somehow (subconciously and non-intended, of course) making him feel bad due to some part of your own behaviour. Think if there is any such thing that provokes him to behave in such a way. Again, I think clear, open and honest communication is key. You are friends after all, and the point is to have fun together, so I hope you can somehow figure out the cause of this problem, adress it and have fun games!

[nurglitch]

I think you need to redirect this person's behaviour, and to do some leading by example: Show him how to have fun whether he wins or loses. Make jokes when the dice bite you in the arse, or when things go wrong. Throw a couple of games to help him build his confidence.

[yowster12]

^^^^ THIS!!! I know it can be weird. But making it seem you did your best while making obvious mistakes can be good. Throwing the towel... you gotta be careful how you do it. You really DONT want him to notice. A thing I do is mention how Im gonna shoot the living snot out of a Unit with another one for the best part of a turn... and then right after totally forget while reminding him or them to shoot any unit thy might forget.

It helps in my group

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Lots of armchair psychology going on. I don't think letting him win (even if in a discrete manner) is a good idea. Talking from personal, fallible experience people who are sore losers usually aren't gracious winners either. And once he losea again (because you will not want to lose every time either, obviously) he may not have learned anything at all, focusing on his recent loss instead of previous victories. Also, I'm sceptical of the 'show him how to play' attitude. I get that it's well-meaning, that you want him to understand the game better, understand his codex and army to the fullest. But this is a game of dice and chance is involved in practically every action this game has to offer. We all know this, we all deal with it. But if you are, helplessly so, the kind who gets mad, frustrated, depressed or hostile when fortune favors the opponent (or just not you), then that's nigh impossible to deal with. It would surprsie me if such behavior is an isolated case. That he's a well-rounded, esteemed man in every other aspect life than tabletop games. You are trying to deal with the symptoms, when the cause itself is what is the problem. I think the mixed approach of encouraging 'to forge a narrative' and at the same time constantly remind him 'that it's just a game' is contradictory. He's probably a good person and so are you, but I personally struggle with sympathizing with such behaviour. Well knowing that this makes me potentially sound conceit, but I consider my self an extremely friendly player who compensates for his lack of tactical acumen, by not being an (please do not swear). And yes, drooping over dead plastic figures constitutes being an (please do not swear). You said yourself how bad he made you feel. It may not have been his intention, far from it perhaps, but still... Too old for this.

[Geneva]

Hey, how ya doin'?

I have a similar situation with Netrunner at the moment. It's a bother seeing how small the Netrunner scene still is where I live. Nothing sucks more than playing a game where neither side is enjoying themselves. Personally I try to alleviate the mood by joking or trying to encourage little sub objectives to try and achieve. Setting the narrative for a glorious last stand against the enemy is usually the best. Heck, even name some of the models if that helps. Granted, sometimes people just can't be encouraged when the game isn't going exactly how they imagined it would in their mind's eye. Kinda sucks but there it is. Sometimes even taking a break from the game and trying something else for a little while can help too. It isn't always the losing bit that gets people down but the feeling of being on a losing streak. Even if said losing streak is mostly the creation of their own imagination.

[raptrix]

Really feel for you on this. I have had a similar situation but of a different age group. Im in my late 20's but have hosted 40k clubs for kids getting into it. Some of the kids have had a rough time in school etc for appearance and hobbies. Some of them cannot deal with what they associate as failing at something. Losing does not factor as a highly possible and totally fine part of the game dynamics. It took me a while but I combined narratives such as bigger up the courage of warriors as they went down swinging and humour narratives when a whole squad of super humans space marines fail to hit the side of a barn door. I also tried to be a role model which helped as a nid player by throwing waves of gaunts etc at there guns to demonstrate how to take massive losses on the chi with a good laugh at my brood being bug splatted. I feel for you though, atleast these are impressionable kids, your issue is a guy in his early 19/20 as your in uni.I am now psych but i imagine there is more to his mental process than just not enjoying a loss which really is a hard one. Can you not try mentioning this to him outside of the gaming room during lunch etc at uni? I know its tough to broach it but maybe try doing some unscorred games where you just try new guns or builds? Respect to you for sticking by him even though hes being a little challenging...

[blackrainbow]

That is a tough lesson to learn in life, that losing IS important in learning. And not just going onto the web and looking up how not to lose, that is not learning. GG raptrix on taking the tough role of leader. You can also try to let them each take turns as the bugs (or w/e unit is getting shot-up) so they can see that POV. And perhaps make a scenario contest to see who can make the most spectacular last stand. Those always stand out in my books.

OP: You can also just ask why he doesn't like losing. That may seem like a silly question, but letting people verbalize their internal thoughts may help get over self-imposed hurdles. Yeah, we all like to win. But how much sweeter is the victory when it is earned than to being served up on a silver platter. That is one of the greatest parts of the game (outside of going against OP WAAC [win at all cost] lists). You play your mate, lose. Play again, lose. Play some more, barely lose. You are learning something new. Then, you start to win, or at least tie often.

I can't imagine how your friend works their classes at university if they expect to win first time at everything. That is like taking a new class and just expecting to know everything day one. Learning, not just looking things up, but actually knowing things and how they apply, is the key to so much in life. Failure helps, just make sure they (and we) learn from it.

[spacelord]

I read this online:

"When I've been in your situation, I've calmly shared once or twice the same, "It's not fun to play with you when you (insert behavior here)" and if that doesn't work, I just calmly stop the game and pack it up. I don't bring it back out just because they say "no, wait, I wont do behavior anymore, c'mon, please, let's just finish this game." When it stops being fun, I end the game calmly and without anger and the game is DONE. We can come back to it another time some other day, and if the behavior is still there, I'll bring it up calmly again that it's not fun to play when they are doing whatever they are doing, and I'll end the game. Usually only one or two times solves the problem because they get the socialization and blunt realization of how their behaviors affect others and they tend to learn from that but sometimes it's a lasting issue."

I think at this age your friend needs this type of consequence to learn from thier behavior. By letting them get away with that behavior your not really helping them.

Another thing you could do is go see a counselor at your university, tell them about your friends problem and see what they suggest.

You can read the whole thing here:

www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/1rndal/how_to_fix_a_sore_loser/

anyway thats my 2 cents.

[spacelord]

I'd be curious to find out what you end up doing and how it works for you.

[cypheon]

i would definitely not suggest throwing a few games, as the moment you win again he'll go right back to his old self. however, see if you can arrange some 2v2 games with some other friendlies, so that you can work with him and help him learn more effective tactics without him interpreting it as post-game condescension.

also, make sure that when he rolls piss-poor (a whole unit of terminators getting wiped out by lasgun overwatch fire, for instance), you join him in sacrificing his dice and acquiring new ones. sore losers in tabletop games really have to come to accept that some times dice just hate being rolled, and should take enjoyment from melting down a die that rolled a 1 17 times in a row. it's how i got over it when i'd lose 20 genestealers against a standard 10man IG unit way back when Genestealers were the most awesome thing with 6 limbs.

[nurglitch]

Oh, and here's something salient from Bell of Lost Souls. Quite naturally the best content is on the forums: www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?55037-Safe-Sane-and-Consensual-or-The-Arrogance-of-Playstyles