Hive Guard why dont we see many of them?

[reitifoh]

Hey guys, was just reading through the codex and read up on the hive guard (NOT tyrant guard) and wondering why we don't see many of them, the impaler cannon is a good S8 24" weapon that does not need line of sight AND ignores cover (I.E. Jink) and for 55 points its a good model, the only downside I see is using up an elites choice you could use for zoanthropes or venomthropes
But even with all of that it seems a cheap anti tank
Thoughts?

[ZergLord]

BS3

Nerf to HG's BSkill was huuuge, they just don't have the same damage output like they had in the old codex. When I playtested them for the first time I was extremely dissapointed in them. Although HG in Tyrannocites might be a decent option but I've never tested that.

[doomreaper9]

They are mainly a filler in most list. When they first came out in 6th ed they were a must have unit. When the new codex came out for our army they got alittle nerfed from having a bs of 4 to a bs of 3. Plus they're point value went up by 5 points. The way tyranid players play now is to take as few casualties each turn thus malathropes and venomthorpes are better choices along with zoanthropes.

[doomreaper9]

Tyranids accel at close combat. Shooting we are just as good as IG. The number crunch of the HG is about on two to three hits per six shots. Not only that most pros know how to handle them by staying out of their range and getting them out in the open.

[Jabberwocky]

Nid lists are just very tight with flyrants and troops for more flyrants.

[Deleted]

I don't know that we excel at close combat. We're not bad by any means. Lots of bodies or generally slower(or barely faster) MC's with nominal to high strength at AP:2 will cleave through the average troop squad.

Problem is a lot of our CC powerhouses come to a screeching halt in both tarpits and anything with an invuln save. And besides the hive tyrant a lot of our bigger guys have a WS that yields only half your attacks hitting when you have an attacks characteristic of 2-4. It swings hard, but is a generally slow cleaver. 

Tyranids have excellent mid range shooting though, and thrive in cover(which seems kind of paradoxical to stay out of sight but move closer to shoot). But we have a handful of units like the biovore and HG that can at least waive Los as a requirement.

I like the HG but not enough to make it a staple of my lists(because of the BS). If I was serious about running them I'd consider giving them all Haywire weapons, dropping them in a tyrannocyte, and seeing if I could tear apart some armor. I'd probably have to drop a crone and then some though to achieve that(in the context of my normal lists), which isn't easy but doable.

[WestRider]

Hive Guard aren't exactly bad, but they're not great either. You can certainly get decent results with them, but generally, point for point, you'll be better off spending them on something with TL MC Devourers or a LAN or something.

[Silegy]

Feb 22, 2015 12:07:22 GMT reitifoh said:

the only downside I see is using up an elites choice you could use for zoanthropes or venomthropes

Did I miss something over the past 3 months of my low to none activity here? Someone actually uses these units? (except of NIB and other people who use Venoms because FW is not allowed in their area)

[Silegy]

Feb 22, 2015 12:24:12 GMT doomreaper9 said:

They are mainly a filler in most list. When they first came out in 6th ed they were a must have unit.

Wait, what?

[reitifoh]

Feb 22, 2015 15:45:47 GMT Silegy said:

Feb 22, 2015 12:07:22 GMT reitifoh said:

the only downside I see is using up an elites choice you could use for zoanthropes or venomthropes

Did I miss something over the past 3 months of my low to none activity here? Someone actually uses these units? (except of NIB and other people who use Venoms because FW is not allowed in their area)

I personally use venomthropes to FULL effect, just today I played a game where they tried to fire 4 twin linked lascannon shots at my Tervigon warlord, which would usually never have a save... however, since they were firing through cover.... through my squad of termagaunts AND into the shrouded field provided by the venomthropes (covering my whole army with just 3) this gave me a cover save of 3+ (5+ cover save, ignored the firing through squad and +2 for shrouded)..... soon as my opponent realised this he decided it was better to shoot something else, even just the threat of these guys is enough to save you from a few low ap shots

in open ground i'll admit venomthropes aren't that great, but in the hypertoxin formation (1x toxicrine, 3x venomthrope squads, 1x hive tyrant with toxin sacs) where you can space them out without using any elites slots, with the additional gaunt/ scenery cover save this makes them a VERY viable use in an army, think about it, its a unit that will always boost your cover save by 2, on an army that usually gets no saves, and since they're required in a nice formation its a no brainer

as for the zoanthropes, i'll admit their lack of range makes the warp blast a low threat to opponents, and they die relatively fast, but for 50 points and 3+ invun, they are an .....ok synapse cover, but their second powers can often be advantageous, e.g onslaught/ catalyst very good boost for getting close or survivability and the 3+ invun means your opponent can not take them 'too' lightly if they really need them dead

I won't deny there are probably units out there that do both jobs better, but none that use up the relatively unused elites slot and leave you free to follow the force organisation chart

[swarm492]

I use to bring hive guard all the time in 5th, our anti tank options however changed with the new dex, and hive guard got a nerf. It is very noticeable, I'll still bring them from time to time, but if so only one unit.

[Kwodd]

The BS drop and point increase killed them for me.

[seanster3000]

I still like Hive Guard the only reason why I don't bring them every time is that I want to keep my opponents guessing as to what I am going to bring. BS 3 hurts but it's not the end of the world. Too many people want their cake and eat it too.

[monkeychuka]

I still think they're viable. I just got sick of running them in every single game of 5th edition I ever played. The only choice I ever had in the elites slot was: should I run 9 Hive Guard or 6 + Doom? Over exposure has led to hatred.

edit: I am of course exaggerating for effect.

[nameless]

I don't want an anti tank shooting unit that can't blow up a tank in a single shot. The volume of fire just isn't high enough to reasonable blow up things.