Infiltrate vs Deep Strike

[N.I.B.]

So, I rolled MoA warlord trait yesterday when playing my null deployment list. My opponent was pretty sure that a unit that has the Infiltrate special rule MUST deploy according to that rule. If you read it you'll see that there's no if's and but's about it, the wording says that units with Infiltrate deploys last, and so on.
This feels wrong, but I couldn't find anything that overruled it. Doesn't mean there isn't anything though.

What's your take on this? Should we really have to forgo rolling on the Strategic Warlord trait when playing a reserve based army, and risk ending up with MoA?

[bugsy]

Maybe being put in deep strike reserve could be considered being deployed. One question about null deployment, don't we loose the game anymore when having nothing on the board at the end of a turn?

[bredkooler]

Dont units go into reserves before deployment? If the infiltrator is already in reserve i dont know if the rule for infiltrate has any effect. Just my thoughts i dont have my BRB handy. EDIT: Ninja'd by bugsy. Well played sir, well played.

[virtualsniper]

I just read the rule for infiltrator. Seems that if you want to deploy it first turn, you indead have no choice to infiltrate. Which is ok as you can put it almost anywhere, which include deploying it as normal.

But the important point is the last line of the rule which says that units with Infiltrator that are kept in reserve gain the outflank rule. Which then confirm that you indeed have the choice to put them in reserve.

Then the outflank rule says that for any unit with outflank in reserve, you can declare that this unit with attempt to outflank. Again this reads like it is optional, which says that you could then not use outflank and use any other means to deploy available from reserve.

Also the reserve rules says any unit can be put in reserve. Obviously there exist some units with special rules preventing them to be held in reserve, but there is nothing in the infiltration rule saying so, so no restriction to put infiltration unit in reserve in either the infiltration rule or reserve rule.

[overhive]

Doesn't the MoA entry say they may infiltrate, and not they gain infiltrate?

[WestRider]

Dec 19, 2014 16:33:32 GMT overhive said:

Doesn't the MoA entry say they may infiltrate, and not they gain infiltrate?

They "...have the Infiltrate Rule."

And if you do put them on the table at the start, yeah, they have to go down last, but you can put them in Reserves normally as far as I can tell, so they could still go in the Spores.

[1swarmlord]

Dec 19, 2014 15:46:29 GMT virtualsniper said:

I just read the rule for infiltrator. Seems that if you want to deploy it first turn, you indead have no choice to infiltrate. Which is ok as you can put it almost anywhere, which include deploying it as normal.

But the important point is the last line of the rule which says that units with Infiltrator that are kept in reserve gain the outflank rule. Which then confirm that you indeed have the choice to put them in reserve.

Then the outflank rule says that for any unit with outflank in reserve, you can declare that this unit with attempt to outflank. Again this reads like it is optional, which says that you could then not use outflank and use any other means to deploy available from reserve.

Also the reserve rules says any unit can be put in reserve. Obviously there exist some units with special rules preventing them to be held in reserve, but there is nothing in the infiltration rule saying so, so no restriction to put infiltration unit in reserve in either the infiltration rule or reserve rule.

the choice to outflank could be very handy instead of infiltrate if that's the option!

[overhive]

Dec 19, 2014 16:39:42 GMT WestRider said:

Dec 19, 2014 16:33:32 GMT overhive said:

Doesn't the MoA entry say they may infiltrate, and not they gain infiltrate?

They "...have the Infiltrate Rule."

And if you do put them on the table at the start, yeah, they have to go down last, but you can put them in Reserves normally as far as I can tell, so they could still go in the Spores.

Thank you for the correction, dont have my brb at hand just going of my apparently (please do not swear) memory

[1swarmlord]

Dec 19, 2014 15:34:50 GMT bugsy said:

Maybe being put in deep strike reserve could be considered being deployed. One question about null deployment, don't we loose the game anymore when having nothing on the board at the end of a turn?

can somebody look this one up, if you have nothing on the board do you lose the game?

[virtualsniper]

Dec 19, 2014 16:51:17 GMT 1swarmlord said:

Dec 19, 2014 15:34:50 GMT bugsy said:

Maybe being put in deep strike reserve could be considered being deployed. One question about null deployment, don't we loose the game anymore when having nothing on the board at the end of a turn?

can somebody look this one up, if you have nothing on the board do you lose the game?

Yes, if at the end of any game turn, a player as no models on the battlefield, he auto-loose.

[luke1705]

Infiltrate also confers outflank. So if a model who has infiltrate couldn't outflank, why would it confer outflank? You can absolutely take a unit with infiltrate and put it in regular reserves/deep strike reserves if it also is able to deep strike via some other means (tyrannocyte, wings, etc). The only thing that you can't do is deploy first, not put your model on the table and announce that it is infiltrating, then after your opponent deploys decide that you want to deep strike/outflank/otherwise reserve it, or vice versa. You have to declare during your deployment which you are doing

[coredump]

Bogus..

First, the Infiltrate rule states you can put the into reserves.

Second, the reserve rules say you decide to put something into reserves when you are deploying your army.

So it just means you get to wait until both sides have initially set up before deciding if you want the infiltrators to deploy on the board or into reserves.

[cypheon]

1) the rules for reserves alone is enough... you can choose any unit to put into reserves unless that unit can not move (fortification) or has another rule which requires it to start on the table.
2) Infiltrate does grant outflank, but you do have to declare during deployment if a unit is going to outflank (which means you can deploy everything else, then decide if you want to infiltrate, deep strike, or outflank, since you're still in the deployment phase)
3) you can't bring anything out from reserves on turn 1 as a tyranid yet (even tyranocytes have to wait to turn 2), so if you aren't deploying anything at the start of the game... you lose, because you'll have nothing on the table at the end of game turn 1.
4) as for the specific wording of infiltrate... if you are not holding them in reserve, then they have to deploy as infiltrators, even if you're putting them in the back of your army (to prevent enemy infiltrators getting behind you). I wish they'd fix the wording of this as it means your genestealers deployed in your deployment zone can't be used to punish a tau jet-pack rush on your first turn.

[N.I.B.]

Dec 22, 2014 3:39:09 GMT cypheon said:

1) the rules for reserves alone is enough... you can choose any unit to put into reserves unless that unit can not move (fortification) or has another rule which requires it to start on the table.

I think this is enough, along with the mention in the Infiltrate rule that says it can outflank (and thus be put in reserves).

[hiveminded]

Funny, this exact question came up the other day on another forum.

Units that are selected to go into reserves are put there before deployment. In other words they are not deployed, so the infiltrate rule doesn't apply. So yes, a unit with infiltrate can start the game in reserve. As already pointed out, infiltrate says “Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves.” So obviously, infiltrators can be kept as reserves from this statement.

What you cannot do is to deploy normally within your deployment zone and elect to "not use" infiltrate....this is not allowed as infiltrators that are deploying must deploy last. Why is this important? Because units deployed via infiltrate can't assault turn one....not just on the first player's turn, but on the entire first game turn. 

This means if your opponent has 1st turn and runs directly at your genestealers, for example, and ends his run move 6" from them, you are not permitted to assault them on your turn in the bottom of round 1. 

Pretty lame, really. Infiltrate needs to be made optional....poor rule wording on the part of GW.