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Post by guidebot on Nov 2, 2014 3:51:42 GMT
I feel like the GW-is-model-company-first argument has been brought up a staggering amount of times in just the past few days. Because people are starting to acknowledge the truth behind what GW says on their own webpage concerning their company. The realization is painful once it sinks in.. perhaps if people stopped having such high hopes for new releases it wouldn't hurt so bad. I can't help but feel that, if true, this approach is really hurting them. I love their models, I have a great deal of passion for building and painting them. But ultimately, I do it to play games against my friends. To do that, I need rules that engage me. I haven't bought a single tyranid model since the most recent codex (which, after reading, I also didn't buy). I reckon if the rules were good I would have bought a LOT of stuff, but I'm just not interested. It doesn't matter whether they're models first and rules second, they HAVE to be money first, because that's how companies survive and live. Their recent approach to 40k has cost them £1000s in me and my friends money - fact. If they're going to the trouble of making such exquisite models, they should have good rules as a matter of course. They just should. EDIT: Sorry, this is rather off topic. I'll stop now.
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Post by FTGT-BeeCee on Nov 2, 2014 4:27:57 GMT
The rules are fine. After a few playtest games, I can say with confidence that the Toxicrene is bonkers good. The Maleceptor is definitely one of the more unique single model units in the game. It requires some finesse to play correctly, but is by no means the worst model in our arsenal. I have found him a pinch better than Tervigons in 7th. I need to play about 5 more games before I'll figure out for sure, but his power is just so...costly. Both look amazing at least. The Toxicrene actually has a massive footprint with the tentacles, and opponents think of it as downright scary! (NOTE: I am okay with using a bug that draws all the gunfire. He's tougher to kill than one might think up front. Also keep in mind that math hammer is irrelevant once a game starts, because units rarely end up in those exact situations, in a vacuum, without any other consideration.) C'mon man, math hammer is irrelevant? probability is probability, not acknowledging this is just plain stupid. The numbers don't lie, Sure there are times when the dice will get hot and you might be able to beat the odds but willfully ignoring the odds is a losing strategy.
If you listen to any top tier competitive 40k player they will tell you the same thing- always look for ways to remove the dice from equations as much as you can. You do this by not relying on 5++ invul saves or BS 3 but instead target priority so that it allows your opponent the least number of saves possible, you find ways to rely on 3++ invuls and BS 4 or 5 etc...
The only reason I am even replying to you is not to change your mind, because your world is black and white with you always in the right. I just hope that someone who doesn't know things doesn't take your claims as gospel, buy 3 Maleceptors and waste $200+
Why does the Toxicrene draw all gunfire? It moves 6", it does not need to be dealt with first in most situations. Even the trapdoor honestly relies on us counting on the fact that our opponent can't resist the urge to attack us. If you are playing an objective game and you hold 2 and they hold 2 with 1-2 in the center, they can also afford to wait you out. Luckily this can be negated somewhat with progressive scoring but that all depends on the meta you play in.
This is also the reason I am not as high on the exocrine as I once was. There is no reason your opponent needs to be within 24" of that thing until it wants to be.(not counting you getting the infiltrate warlord trait or other shenanigans, and assuming you aren't playing maelstrom because I don't play pure maelstrom because who wants more random...).
When people mindlessly rush units into the Exocrine's killzone, that thing is worth triple the points it costs to me but honestly, those are probably opponents who I would have otherwise defeated because they are playing "line 'em up and run at 'em" 40k.
I will agree that the Maleceptor is not the worst model we have, only because if I wanted to take an entirely MC army, I can do it and provide some more synapse. I see it falling in to the more casual/fun/quirky lists. Is there going to be a time when you finish off a wraithknight with its psychic power? Sure there will be, the key will be to remember all the times it fails to do anything and adjust accordingly.
Again, it's 6 layers of dice you have to navigate though. You must manifest the psychic power (with an extra die to pick the target), you have to beat your opponent's deny the witch roll, you have to roll to hit (this is the big one, it's BS 3, this immediately reduces your chance to do anything by 50%), then the target has to roll a ld test on 3d6 (a lot of people are talking about the combo with this and SitW but I think this is negated to some extent by the fact that a psyker will have a + to the deny the witch roll), then you have to roll your d3 wounds, then the target (if a character) has to fail a Look out sir roll to not pass the wound off to some scrub in the same unit, then you have to navigate any invulnerable saves if the target has any.
That is way too much random to rely on the unit to do anything with the power and without the power you are paying 205 pts for a T6 5W 4+/5++ synapse creature with 1 power. Things like heavy burst cannons, wave serpents, and assault cannons are going to do bad things to this dude. You are only going to make but so many 5++ saves. This is the same vulnerability the Zoanthrope has with a 3++, sustained fire is his worst enemy.
We do agree in one thing though, I also think both models look amazing. I will own 1 of each for sure, likely 2 toxicrenes.
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Post by 1swarmlord on Nov 2, 2014 4:28:25 GMT
either way I have to get one of each! but I am currently waiting for the TYRANID DIMACHAERON!!! one thing at a time....
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Post by rehkal on Nov 2, 2014 6:29:32 GMT
Because people are starting to acknowledge the truth behind what GW says on their own webpage concerning their company. The realization is painful once it sinks in.. perhaps if people stopped having such high hopes for new releases it wouldn't hurt so bad. um no we're hearing the (please do not swear) more than the truth. The truth is they are a model AND gaming company, people (please do not swear) and moan because white knights gotta white knight As upsetting as you may find this, I do not believe anyone here has been claiming GW is a only a model company. I know I haven't because to say they only produce models is pure idiocy but you seem to be fixated on everyone claiming GW is only a model company.. and in truth, none of us are even claiming that. Those that do bring it up always point to GWs own stance on the subject. GWs primary focus is on the sale of models, not on the production of games. That is what GW repeatedly says on their page and it is what people have finally begun to realize around here. (one can only get (please do not swear) rules for so long before realizing the company producing them isn't interested in them after all) GWs lack of support for the game aspect is only further supporting what their webpage says in clear black and white. And to be clear when I say lack of support I mean lack of FAQs, lack of decent writing, lack of decent rules in the first places, lack of meaningful response to player inquires, etc, etc..
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 2, 2014 6:47:02 GMT
the fact it's their official stance only makes it stupider. i dunno what point you're trying to make.
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Post by arapaima on Nov 2, 2014 7:53:43 GMT
The we just a model company bro, deal with it is not a good idea to do bis imo. Gw players have long put functionability of a unit in game as a grading criteria for a product. It's been long established when GW decide to make their system to support their dsng awesome looking miniatures, denying that in their mission statement does not mean folks stop thinking so.
Last i seen brass typing up a batrep here, his list includes the standard format. It got dakkaflyrants, venomthropes, termagaunts and shooting oriented HS MCs. Color me a bit disappointed, because i want him to show an armchair hive tyrant like me the TRUE TERROR OF THE HARUSPEXES.
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Post by creatureboi on Nov 2, 2014 8:52:31 GMT
The official GW line of model company first probably makes sense to them. They are a business and so focused on making money (even ahead of making models ☺). In their mind the logic probably goes; what can we sell more of? A rulebook that will be bought once by everyone who plays the game, or a model kit that may be bought several times by our players and by pure painter/collector types? As for FAQ, no one pays anything for them so why bother- it's extra work for the rules team got which HE has to pay and gets no money (directly) in return.
The point is models have a bigger potential market than rules. You can buy and paint models without playing the game, but you can't play the game without buying the models. There are more people who model than people people who play because the latter includes the former entirely but the former is not purely restricted to the latter.
Thus in GWs eyes it makes financial sense to focus on model production. The people who want too play the game will have to buy the rules anyway but the people who buy models do so for reasons of aesthetics as well as just to play with them. Case in point- look on this thread at how many have said that the rules are rubbish but they're going to buy at least one of each anyway because they look so good.
I would like to point out that I don't necessarily agree with GWs approach. They are taking a very short term, instant reward approach and not looking at the big picture. They are cranking out cool looking models and expecting a large number of people to buy one because of how it looks. If they made cool looking models with strong rules then everyone would buy several. Also, if they did a better job with the rules in the first place there would be no need to write FAQs which don't earn money because there would need no gaps or issues to correct. That's a bit of a pipe dream though on a system where there are so many moving parts. With all the hundreds of different rules and new stuff coming out all the time it's almost impossible to keep track of everything, especially where there's a whole team of people working on different projects who don't necessarily all share the same view of how things should work.
GW suffers from the same problem as computer game developers such as EA. They are too focused on trying to survive and make money short term meaning they rush out new releases as quickly as possible because a new product sitting on a developers desk somewhere odd not making them any money. The result: short term instant gain as early adopters rush to buy the new shiny. Long term loss (in that they don't make as much as they could have done) when people discover bugs/flaws in the rules.
I'm not saying GWs approach is good, just that they're is some business thinking behind it and they are far from the only company out there who operates in this way.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 2, 2014 8:59:35 GMT
yeah, we know it's not good. pointed it out a couple of times. in fact it's bad. it's not good 'business thinking' and we've demonstrated why, like we have every time this gets brought up.
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Post by daboarder on Nov 2, 2014 9:00:17 GMT
"m sorry but no, If I was a modeler I'd be out spending my money on far better kits that cost the same
Modelers dont really do warhammer. Oh there might be one or two (I expect the annedcotes soon) But for the most part the GAME is what drives the sales. and the reaction to the rules reflects this....or do you really think GW has sold a decent number of pyrovores
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 2, 2014 9:05:48 GMT
i know a couple of people that only buy 40k models, but not the game. they're all people that quit playing 40k, because of (please do not swear) like this. they occasionally buy 40k models that they really love, but play other games and spend their money there. again, it's trading an occasional one-off sale of something that's just flaming badass (like the glottkin, or maggoth lords) for thousands of dollars a yer. i know they're just a modeling company but i'm pretty sure there's an accountant somewhere that works for them that can explain basic (please do not swear) math...
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Post by daboarder on Nov 2, 2014 9:09:22 GMT
dude, have you seen the way they write rules....I'm not sold on that accountant part
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Post by creatureboi on Nov 2, 2014 9:29:26 GMT
"m sorry but no, If I was a modeler I'd be out spending my money on far better kits that cost the same Modelers dont really do warhammer. Oh there might be one or two (I expect the annedcotes soon) But for the most part the GAME is what drives the sales. and the reaction to the rules reflects this....or do you really think GW has sold a decent number of pyrovores Pyrovores are actually a case in point. No one buys the pyrovore because it has amazing rules. People do buy the pyrovore because they like the model (usually to proxy as a biovore). Of course, GW could sell a lot more pyrovores if they were actually useful as pyrovores...
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Post by slithernaut on Nov 2, 2014 9:48:57 GMT
"m sorry but no, If I was a modeler I'd be out spending my money on far better kits that cost the same Modelers dont really do warhammer. Oh there might be one or two (I expect the annedcotes soon) But for the most part the GAME is what drives the sales. and the reaction to the rules reflects this....or do you really think GW has sold a decent number of pyrovores Games Workshop is a model company, and therefore you should build and paint all of your models in glass bottles, or admit you have no artistic abilities what so ever. /sarcasm I just dumped alomst 50 bucks on some Polish TKS Tankettes, for my Squat army. Keeping my eye out for Polish Armored Trains or a "Squat Land Train". ffffffffffffffffffffffff YOu Geedubz. I do own 3 Metal Pyrovores, one of the last Models to be released in Meal me thinks. Good thing they make sexy Biovores.
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Post by slithernaut on Nov 2, 2014 9:53:30 GMT
"m sorry but no, If I was a modeler I'd be out spending my money on far better kits that cost the same Modelers dont really do warhammer. Oh there might be one or two (I expect the annedcotes soon) But for the most part the GAME is what drives the sales. and the reaction to the rules reflects this....or do you really think GW has sold a decent number of pyrovores Pyrovores are actually a case in point. No one buys the pyrovore because it has amazing rules. People do buy the pyrovore because they like the model (usually to proxy as a biovore). Of course, GW could sell a lot more pyrovores if they were actually useful as pyrovores... You realize that if people buy Pyrovores to proxy as Biovores, then geedeubs has gained nothing, right? 6 Biovores in my collection is the same as 3 Biovores and 3 Pyrovores to the bean counters.
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Post by Anggul on Nov 2, 2014 9:55:32 GMT
They look brilliant.
The sad part is they're clearly more heavily armoured than most of the other MCs and have a worse armour save.
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