Renegade Open List building. Help me decide!

[FTGT-BeeCee]

Hey everyone,

Since I am now not playing skyblight at Renegade I figured i'd post a bunch of list ideas and get feedback from others as I prep for the Renegade open.

Here are the army list rules:
Army Selection Methods
 Your Army May Only have 2 Sources. 0-1 Combined Arms Detachment(CAD), 0-1 Allied Detachment(AD), 0-2 Formations (including Dataslate Formations such as the Heavy Support Cadre, or Flying Swarm Tyranids Formation). [ITC Rules]
 These Sources may both come from the same Faction, but must adhere to the above restrictions. [ITC Rules]
 Single unit/model Dataslate units will count as replacing a Detachment Force Organizational Slot as befits the unit. (ex. Be'Lakor replaces 1 HQ slot in your Detachment). [ITC Rules]
•     Units from Forgeworld are allowed though:
 NO Super Heavies with more than 6 Hull Points or 2 Structure Points (these convert at 1SP to 3HPs) will be allowed.
 NO Gargantuan Creatures with more than 6 wounds will be allowed.
 You will be required to present a copy of the rules for these units on request from either Tournament Judges or Opponents. Failure to do so will mean the removal of those unit(s) from the rest of play for the duration of the tournament.
 To help this please PRINT OUT these rules ahead of time (phones are small and hard to look at) or have them on a Tablet Computer/iPad/Kindle/etc.
 Super Heavies/Gargantuan Creatures taken in this way will take up your LORD OF WAR slot in the CAD or Count as your AD if your Primary Detachment is a Formation.
Units Generated during the game that were not purchased as part of a player’s army list (e.g. Tyranid Tervigons spawning Termagaunts or the Chaos Daemons Portaglyph summoning daemons, or Conjuration Powers) are considered part of the owning player’s army, but not any specific Detachment. This means they do not benefit from any Command Benefits of any of the Detachments included in the army (including Objective Secured). [ITC Ruling]

so in a nutshell- 2 sources but only 1 CAD, you can self ally and Forgeworld is in!

I am waiting to see if the missions have a Maelstrom element in them like the BAO, and will look to add some speed to the list to take advantage of that if i need to.

Here is a first list i hammered out today, I am also working on a bunch of other theories and formations to use in order to get my collection painted.

List #1
CAD:
Flyrant with egrubs
Flyrant with egrubs
Tervigon
30 termagants
Malanthrope
2 hive guard
Crone
Exocrine
Exocrine
2 Biovores

Allied detachment:
Flyrant with egrubs
3 deep striking ripper bases.

[FTGT-BeeCee]

List #2
Flyrant with egrubs
flyrant with egrubs
3 warriors with a BS
3 deep striking rippers
malanthrope
malanthrope
Barbed hierodule

Endless swarm
14 hormagaunts
14 hormagaunts
14 hormagaunts
15 termagants
15 termagants
15 termagants
3 warriors with a BS

[FTGT-BeeCee]

I hope you guys aren't getting sick of this:
List #3

Flyrant with egruds and hive commander
flyrant with egrubs
3 warriors with barbed strangler
25 termagants (20 devourers)
malanthrope
2 biovores
barbed hierodule

allied detachment
flyrant with egrubs
25 termagants

1850

[wikkedtiki]

I really love my Living artillery formation.

[mit45]

I really love the idea of swarms, even though it seems to be so far from competitive (from what I heard). I would bring the endless swarm list personally, just for that feeling of having so many bodies on the table right away not to mention a barbed hirodule! I feel like it's a great mix of fire power and target saturation. An opponent would be right to ignore a unit of 15 termagaunts, but 3 units of termagaunts and 3 units of hormagaunts could threaten something seriously, just from number of attacks. Not to mention if they blow a unit off the table they may very well come back. It looks like it would be a fun list to run, competitive? I have no idea. But games were designed to be fun amirite?

[FTGT-BeeCee]

yeah I am worried about the punch in the endless swarm list. waiting for word on the missions too.

another idea the guys on the blog and I were kicking around was minimal hq, barbed hierodule, a couple of malanthropes and as many dakka fexes as I could fit.

could be crazy! I am having a blast just blowing the lid off of list ideas. i'll keep throwing them at the wall and see which ones stick.

[jaysic]

My buddy took an endless swarm list to Gencon and it did pretty well. We did 3 playtest games (against my Eldar) and it demolished me all 3 test games. We got paired up round 1 the day of the tourney, and he beat me by 1 point in a game that could've gone either way. It was a lot of fun, but the just of it was Endless Swarm + Trygon. He ran the 3 Termagant squads just at 10 (along with two more squads of 10 for his troops) and then 3 squads of 15 Hormagaunts. All but 1 of the missions were maelstrom based, and the footprint alone kept opponents in their deployment zones, and the Trygon (who lived only to make the tunnel) made sure that once his squads did die, they were immediately a high priority threat again. While he was lacking punch (3 Biovores, Flyrant, 2 Trygons were his only real damage dealers...and the Trygons just DIED) he still was scoring objective cards left and right.

[FTGT-BeeCee]

List #4-
Flyrant with egrubs
Flyrant with egrubs
Tervigon
30 termagants
Malanthrope
Barbed Hierodule

Living arty Node:
3 biovores
exocrine
3 warriors with a BS

Really liking this one atm as well. exploring dropping the tervigon and gaunts down for more killy though.

[FTGT-BeeCee]

OK Hive,

I renamed the thread, I have it narrowed down a little bit.

Here is what i know:
I want to self ally and bring 3 flyrants
Barbed Hierodule


Here we go:
List 1:
CAD
Flyrant with egrubs and hive commander
Flyrant with egrubs
25 termagants (20 devourers) (outflank)
25 termagants
Malanthrope
Barbed Hierodule
2 biovores

Ally:
Flyrant with egrubs
3 tyranid warriors with a BS

List #2-
Flyrant with egrubs
Flyrant with egrubs
2x20 termagants
Malanthrope
Barbed Hierodule
2 biovores
Mawloc

Allied:
Flyrant with egrubs
3 tyranid warriors with a BS

Let me know! I can also modify the gaunts and put an exocrine in there as well.

[jaysic]

I like the 1st list with the outflanking gants better than the mawloc list

[FTGT-BeeCee]

thanks man, i am worried about the actual bang i get for 180 points of devilgaunts.

[jaysic]

Honestly I think that 20 devourers is a little heavy for 25 gants. I would probably drop 5-10 of them. What is the dream scenario that they would come in and shoot? Is 20 too much in that scenario or just enough?

Also why are the Warriors with the BS there? Backfield Synapse with some hail mary chance for pinning? Don't get me wrong, I love the 100 point warrior MSU. My guess is that they fill 2 roles; Backfield Synapse and tax for the 3rd Flyrant. If that's the case;

1) Drop the Warriors. Plop in 10 'gants instead.
2) Move 5 gants from the 2nd troop choice in your main CAD to the outflank unit, then Drop the other 20.
3) Drop 2 of the 3 ESG from the Flyrants
4) Drop 9 Devourers on the gant squad
5) Add OS Tervigon into main CAD to replace your 2nd troop choice

More durable backfield synapse, is OS, can spawn OS, adds another chance for Paroxysm/Catalyst, another warp charge. Can tarpit / spawn tarpits for enemies who DS.
You'll still have a TON of punch (or tarpit) with the outflanking gants. I'm sure what would make you most hesitant about this is dropping 2 thorax swarms, but you still have the 1 and makes you fire both of your TLD on the other Hive Tyrants, rather than deciding on when to fire both and when to fire the template and 6 of the TLD shots. The ESG is just so situational, and completely gets boned out when you jink to stay alive. I think still having 1 gives you the versatility you wanted when you put them on your flyrants in the first place, while giving your a more solid backfield babysitter for your biovores  that can also speedbump / spawn bubblewrap for the Barbed Hierodule.

.02

Thoughts? Comments? Hesitations? Better ideas? Brand new list?

[FTGT-BeeCee]

firstly, thanks for the time and thought you are putting in to this.

Here are alot of my reservations as i've begun to play the list:

I do honestly feel that the Hierodule is not the best use of 565 points. With that said, I want to play him and I do really like the model and I am going to paint him up to be a centerpiece of the army. I can use him a couple of ways, for the early game he can sit in ruins with a malanthrope and just blast away with 48" range and then can start moving his way up as a bulldozer to clear out resistance or i can just play him like a tank, he still has 5 attacks base and can fire his guns on the way up and then try to force my opponent to turtle or get stuck in.

The hierodule fulfills some meta issues that Nids have, but i will concede to those naysayers such as Coredump (not singling you out buddy, I always feel your points are valid and based in fact) and others that can prove with math that the hierodule isn't the best choice. He is Bs 3, so he will be very hit or miss. What he does provide is a way for me to unload on Knights/armor/wraithknights at range, he is all but immune to small arms fire and even mid str (6-7) non ap 3 weapons are really going to need to bring immense volume of fire to bring him down.

There will also be 3 flying hive tyrants in the list, we all know that they are great gunboats. I do feel a little bit naked without my Egrubs on each one but I am open to try it.

The outflanking gaunts was something i was struggling with, even with 20 devos in the unit they are only going to average 5 MEQ kills in a round of shooting and that is assuming they actually came in on the right side.

The 2 biovores are a bit troubling just for the fact that they seem to really need the LAN to shine and i felt that if i was agressive with the hierodule and flyrants there would be the warriors and biovores sitting out back doing nothing.

So with your changes:
You allowed me to buff model counts if the dice are good on spawns. Alot of people will argue that the Tervigon is no worth its points, I have always felt ok about mine.
You maintained the big outflanking unit, although i'm not sold on the outflanking gaunts yet. I don't feel that i lose too much offense, i was just not sure if the offense it provided was worth it in the first place.
Keeping the 3 hive Tyrants was something I really wanted to do at first.

It's definitely worth some playtesting, I am in the middle of an "every day at lunch game" where my goal was just to run the hierodule down someone's throat to see what kind of punishment/target priority i could get. I am playing agianst a 4 riptide/ shadowsun/2 broadside unit list so the extreme amount of 2+ is difficult for Tyranids.

I will definitely report back updates. Sorry for the novel, I love talking Nids!

[jaysic]

I don't see a reason to apologize for having a long post, so long as it isn't just filler. I think we all enjoy talking 'Nids here.

So, knowing you're not a fan of outflanking devourer gants (me neither! I just thought you really wanted them in your list) Drop them like a bad habit. Except, don't relapse into the bad habit. Like me with smoking. Off topic. Drop Hive Commander too.

I've taken a look at the Nova missions, heard it described by a couple podcasts (best way to pass the time while painting!), and I get a very "Maelstrom-esque" feel to them. Since I'm not going to Nova, I haven't really delved into them, so I may be wrong here. If I'm NOT wrong, then boy howdy, you should take a look at endless swarm. How does this fit into your list?

Basically you go MSU for your gant troop taxes, drop a malanthrope, drop the biovores, should put you at 1850 (if my mental math is correct + remembering the cost of units/upgrades without bothering to go open my codex).

720 3xFlyrants, Grubs
565 -Barbed
85 -Mal
120 - 3x10 gants
360 -Endless Swarm

You can really castle up in case you don't have first turn / scared of being seized on a 5+. 2+ jink on your flyrants, 3+ cover on your GC at least (assuming you put in in cover), same for mal / warriors. You'd have 90 gants and you can daisy-chain them for the cover save if you care if they die. I'd suggest putting your OS gants behind the endless swarm. Go for board control, and use your endless swarm units as a fence to zone your opponent out of quadrants / objectives. Use your OS gants to secure in case there are deepstriking heavy or elites coming in to score. Use Flyrants / Barbed to take out threats that you aren't tarpitting with the endless swarm units. I had a lot of success with this recently, as most opponents will back up to force you into a turn 3 assault, giving up total map control. If they are an assault army (gasp!) they'll rush to meet you, allowing you to set up your perimeter of bodies earlier (yay!). I things get too hairy on a flank you can move the Barbed in for some stomp action (stomp is really good). Anything you can't tarpit your flyrants / barbed will be wanting to attack anyway. Once they remove the real threats, they should be finishing out your MSU endless swarm units, and your heavy hitters should be freed up to clear out what was tarpitted.

That being said...biovores are auto includes, IMO. Formation re-rolls or not. Even if the Biovores miss you can most likely assault with the generated mines, and they pay off against any 4+ or worse behind an aegis line immediately. I hate to see those leave the list, but there simply isn't room.
I also hate to see just 1 malanthrope...but really what is he going to do after turn 1? Hang out with the warriors / barbed (probably barbed?) And then again, when will your opponent have time to shoot at him instead of your real threats?

I really like this list better than the one with the outflanking gants, and it keeps the 4 models you really wanted to include, along with your templates on the Flyrants.

How has the Barbed been doing in your test games? Not neccisarily just in damage caused, but what I'm more interested in; damage soaked.

Edit; Derp derp. For some reason was thinking this was for Nova. No idea if Renegade is going to have a similar mission package or not, hence not sure about viability of endless swarm strategy.

[FTGT-BeeCee]

Yeah, not NOVA unfortunately. Sometime I will get out there. Renegade is limited to 2 sources so I can't have a CAD+Ally+formation.

If I were to want to play endless swarm I could do something like:
Flyrant with egrubs
Flyrant with egrubs
3 warriors with BS
3 deep striking rippers
malanthrope
malanthrope
3 biovores
Barbed hierodule

Endless
3x10 termagant
3x10 hormagaunt
warriors with BS

1850 on the nose

essentially I am trading a flyrant for a bunch of gaunts and a malanthrope. I'm not sure that's what I want to do. Honestly it kind of depends on if the missions have a large KP element in them.

As for the barbed, so far vs Tau he has held up really well. I made a mistake in my deployment and he was able to markerlight him up and do 2 wounds with sniper kroot (lucky dice on his part) but otherwise the hierodule has been thus far completely immune to broadside fire. He did fire some riptides at the hierodule as well but once you have eliminated the markerlights, Tau are ultimately BS 3 so you can mitigate a lot of their shooting. We are only in turn 3 currently and the Hierodule has 4 wounds left. If I would have played him to just mindlessly charge ahead turn 1 I'm sure I would be even better off. My first time through with the new unit is to usually try to put it in a situation where it is going to take a beating and see how long it lasts.