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Post by WestRider on Oct 5, 2014 0:53:33 GMT
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 5, 2014 1:18:28 GMT
it's a shame,the book really is gorgeous too.
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 6, 2014 6:46:52 GMT
GW want you to buy Mandrakes now. Annoying - Talos, better and squadroned, T7 Carnifex with FnP for the same points as the fex. At least it lost attacks, IIRC. No option for Fleet that I can remember and only has 3 wounds, they come out about square 3W, T7, FNP owns 4W pretty hard. If they are able to use the webway portal from an attached character (with a 2++ save to tank wounds), they will see a lot of play. And this. I wouldn't even unpack my army.
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Post by Silegy on Oct 6, 2014 13:14:45 GMT
I feel like I finally found the right words for my thoughts on the way codies now are. Lazy. I feel like the writers are lazy, lacking passion and fantasy. I realise Im not into 40k long enough to be talking about some "Yo sons, back in the days", but when I got into 40k, it was 5th edition. And I started thoroughly studying almost every dex (man, I miss the pdf scans, nowadays Im so lost in this e-stuff), watching batreps, reading forums, bla bla bla,... My favourites were Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar. Because I when I was reading the codices, I was like "Omg, this is so cool!" "Such a lovely, gimmicky stuff!" "Whoa, this is a sick combo!", etc.
Now we have what? Codex: Twin Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms and freshly released Codex: Venomspam, update to the older Codex: Venomspam and some other unimportant stuff. 6th edition hit playability of some codices very hard. But I feel like (with few lucky exceptions) what GW does is instead of giving you a new codex with new cool and gimmicky stuff, they a) ignore portion of your bad units b) make the rest of your units even worse c1) bury your army with changes to what was good c2) keep your stupid monobuild strong, so you can keep playing the lovely list even you hate to play.
/endrant /sorryforthis
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 6, 2014 14:21:48 GMT
Other than the loss of characters, I'm hearing good things about DE from the few local players that play them. Not as many goodies as other armies, but overall they seem to have gotten stronger. Formations will probably be key. It's a shame that they didn't get a LOW in book, not sure the reasoning to that. The loss of characters hurts a lot and makes no sense if GW wants the game to be more narrative. Why do that and then take all the flair out of the new codexes? I'm not sure what direction GW is going. I'm glad power creep seems to have stopped, but I don't like how boring everything is getting. Orks used to be really fun. Randomness wasn't the best thing to build a competitive list around, but they were always hilarious to play before. Now? meh. You can keep from making things overpowered and still leave some variety in the book. I'm disheartened how nothing gets to change slots anymore based on what HQs are selected. I bet the tervigon as a troops choice is gone when our codex updates.
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 6, 2014 16:29:22 GMT
Vect - coming soon to a data slate near you.
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Post by Silegy on Oct 6, 2014 19:23:12 GMT
Even if Vect comes on a golden dataslate, pooping Venoms and PfP tokens while spitting dark lances and throwing Wyches stuffed with Haywire, winning each and every single tourney, it will not make the codex decent in my eyes.
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Post by Yautja on Oct 7, 2014 0:10:29 GMT
Even if Vect comes on a golden dataslate, pooping Venoms and PfP tokens while spitting dark lances and throwing Wyches stuffed with Haywire, winning each and every single tourney, it will not make the codex decent in my eyes. Would be no different to us lot relying on Formations or Forgeworld additions to be more competitive.
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Post by Sensei on Oct 7, 2014 1:31:45 GMT
Dark Eldar are my second army, and quickly becoming my primary army after what Nids have become...
My thoughts on the codex:
Overall, I think it's actually pretty good.
There are definitely some WTF GW moments - most notably wyches. They literally lost everything they had going for them (yes, they still have dodge 4+, but that still won't help them much). Honestly, not upset about them losing haywaire, they were never supposed to be tank hunters. Their special weapons got hit hard going from giving D6 bonus attacks, +1 attack and reroll to hit/wound, and + 1 A and -1 A to all btb enemies to +1 A with shred, +1 A, reroll hits, +1 A reroll hits/wounds on ones only respectively. They stayed the same cost while literally almost everything in the codex got points drops. Phantasm/torment grenade launchers got pooped on too, losing the ability to grant assault grenades and being completely useless against anything with Fearless or ATSKNF (hey! nids are in the list of armies completely immune to this weapon! LOL) Also, the elimination of a lot of characters was annoying, but I'm betting they will be back in a soon to be released $70 supplement book. Thanks GWs. Honestly, other than wyches, I don't really see a whole lot wrong with the changes. All of them were either predicted and anticipated or they are still playable. Other than that I think most of the other changes are all a wash or an improvement.
Vehicles got slightly more expensive, but honestly not a problem in my mind, especially now that they are fast attack and have the option to be taken without a unit. People are complaining about the loss of flickerfields on Raiders, but honestly I don't think it's that big a deal. I never go into a game expecting my raiders to survive, and if they do, great. They are still fast, and their main use is not firepower - it's to get your units into position. Now with all vehicles getting deepstrike for free, flickerfields are not needed on them because they don't have to sit on the board turn one, but can still deliver units right where they are needed - and even get no scatter if you stick an HQ and WWP in them.
FOC manipulation doesn't allow wracks as troops, but troops in 7th are not as integral as they used to be. Objective secured is nice, but I don't think necessary. Especially with wracks/grots/archon court improvements, objective secured isn't needed because they can most likely clear a unit and claim the objective easily enough. With the ability to get a fair amount of no scatter deepstrike, they don't have to worry about foot slogging/vehicles getting blown/losing too many casualties before getting into position to take the objective. Dark Eldar have the ability to take lists with up to 6 Elites and 4 HQ or 6 Fast attack units and that's if they only take one detachment. If they combine the two from the codex and the one from the upcoming coven supplement they can have a list with up to 6 HQ, 9 Elites, 9 FA and 7 Heavy - fill in the rest with warriors (because wyches are useless). That opens up a LOT of tactical options imo.
Reavers, Incubi, Scourges and Hellions all got noticeably cheaper (the scourges and hellions by 6 points a model!!). Warriors are down a point as well. Armour can be taken care of by scourges who can now take 4 Heavy/special weapons in a unit of 5. Bombers seem to be alright as well, but will have to play one to test it out. Reavers are interesting. No more flyover bladevanes, but instead they get hit and run and do bonus HOW attacks at higher strength. Not necessarily a nerf or a buff - just a change and one to be seen how well it works. Mandrakes are down in cost as well, and look like they will actually be of use. Not the strongest unit in the codex, but at least they will see the table now.
WWP portals seem pretty good to get hard hitting units into place very fast, with no scatter deep strike. Grotesques are absolute monsters now - S/T 5 with FNP and all can take a liquifier gun, and come stock with a CCW that causes instant death on a 6 - combine with their special rules that give them up to 8 attacks on the charge and say goodnight to wraithknights and riptides. A character with a WWP will be useful in putting Scourges, Incubi, or wracks right where you want or need them.
The Coven supplement looks absolutely incredible. Everything I've seen so far it great and looks like it will work extremely well with a detachment of regular dark eldar support. Some of the formations are crazy and open up a lot of tactical options. One allows a combination Haemie/talos/chronos - Take a WWP portal for no scatter buff to FNP on your units exactly where you want, plus two MCs in your opponent's face. There's also a suicide squad - haemie plus two units of wracks, all wracks get precision shots and haemie gets the warlord trait for +D3 victory points if he is killed by an AP 1/2 weapons in a challenge. With a WWP drop in next to your opponent's deathstar - liquify to soften, challenge leader while wracks use precision shots to take out any hidden power weapons - if haemie dies, you get points, then wracks direct all precision shots at leader and you get points again when he dies.
As a dark eldar player, I'm actually pretty excited about the new codex (as well as the supplement - although not impressed I need to buy two books....). Like I said, overall there appear to be a lot of options, especially once the regular codex is combined with the supplement. I'm only expecting that to increase with the rumours of a supplement planned for wych cults (maybe wyches will get something then). I'm also not too concerned with the removal of the characters - a lot of them were used to abuse loopholes and were run as DE allies with other armies. And if the rumours hold any water characters will be making a return in future supplements. A lot of people are crying nerf on everything, but I honestly think the only thing that legitimately got the nerf bat is wyches. There are a fair number of changes to the way things work, but a lot of it brings things in line with 7th or changes things up enough so the codex is different from the last codex. If they had left things the same, people would be crying that the codex was a copy/paste of the last one. I think they did a way better job of porting the DE codex to 7th than they did with nids. A lot of the tyranid codex was word for word the same - DE got changes, but with the exception of wyches the units kept the essence of their role in tact while getting changed enough to offer new tactics and options.
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Post by chuckles on Oct 8, 2014 11:53:02 GMT
Power From Pain now encourages a style of play which is wholly unsuitable for Dark Eldar. They are not a late-game army, a special rule causing them to get exponentially better each turn is not helpful. And the number of anti-tank solutions is pretty alarming. Dark lances are simply not that great.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 8, 2014 13:53:59 GMT
I don't see why people are complaining about how PfP now works. If it worked the other way round, as some have suggested, it would be a little heavy handed. A lot of games come down to the last few turns and I think you'll find that getting better as the game progresses will win a lot of games. It's fluffy too, as they inflict pain they get stronger. The other way round would be bass ackwards. I realize that Dark Eldar players want to arrive on the table top and create untold havoc on turn 1, but don't all players? Everyone cries that their army doesn't play enough like the fluff. I've been around long enough that I'm familiar enough with the fluff that I know every book talks a good talk about your army. Consider this about each codex:
- Eldar is supposed to be the strongest b/c of their great prowess, technology, and desperation as they near extinction. - Space Marine, and all variants, are superior b/c, well, they are super human Space Marines. - IG is strongest because of the countless billions of expendable troops and huge guns they can bring to bear. - Orks are strongest b/c of vast numbers and innate love of war, if they only ever got united nothing could stop them. - Chaos is strongest b/c of their ability to spread the taint of chaos (I find that hilarious in the fluff), it can only be slowed. - Necrons are returning to superiority as they awaken from slumber, if they aren't stopped they will dominate the universe. - Tau will use their superior technology to bring all under the 'greater good' umbrella or be crushed. - Tyranids are unstoppable as they consume more and more they get stronger and stronger as they absorb biomass.
All these things are listed in the fluff. They cannot all be true at the same time. However GW is brilliant in communicating the idea that your army is special, unique, and greatest. On the table top this becomes problematic as everyone can't be the ultimate. The old adage "saying everyone is special is the same thing as saying no one is" comes to mind. I for one am glad the codex creep has stopped, especially since the codex release schedule is on hyper drive.
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Post by chuckles on Oct 8, 2014 14:38:35 GMT
The problem being that most other factions who want to arrive on the table top and create untold havoc (not necessarily turn 1 btw) aren't anywhere near as squishy as Dark Eldar. DE have to "Alpha Strike" the enemy because if it's still a straight fight on turn 4 then they're very likely to lose
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Post by halos on Oct 8, 2014 14:42:31 GMT
In the case of DE it's not a case of wanting to be strongest, I think most people would agree that as factions go DE are pretty far down there on the 'power scale'.
However, it's not a case of the rules limiting their power, this turn-based power-from-pain will probably prove more useful than the old style where mostly it was vehicles doing the killing (which didn't benefit from the old-style PfP). But, these power from pain rules promote a play-style of holding back until you've garnered enough strength; you don't gain power from killing, but from waiting, quite possibly the exact opposite of the supposed lightning-fast raid style the army is generally imagined to present.
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Post by mattblowers on Oct 8, 2014 14:43:51 GMT
With maneuverability, and all the shenanigans you have, they should easily be able to survive. Not many games end with an opponent being tabled. The fact that they become harder as the game goes on would be great. Think of our 'nids: we always have IB lurking in the background that can raise it's ugly head. I'd give anything for that to get better as the game went on. It might change the way DE play, but I still see it as good. You have vehicles that can all deepstrike and movement that doesn't effect the squads in the open top transports, most armies would kill for that. What do you suggest? Being able to table your opponent by round 2?
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Post by chuckles on Oct 8, 2014 15:24:14 GMT
With maneuverability, and all the shenanigans you have, they should easily be able to survive. Not many games end with an opponent being tabled. The fact that they become harder as the game goes on would be great. Think of our 'nids: we always have IB lurking in the background that can raise it's ugly head. I'd give anything for that to get better as the game went on. It might change the way DE play, but I still see it as good. You have vehicles that can all deepstrike and movement that doesn't effect the squads in the open top transports, most armies would kill for that. What do you suggest? Being able to table your opponent by round 2? Hello there false dichotomy
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