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Post by tylertt on Jul 31, 2014 11:31:37 GMT
maelstrom doesnt force you to "maneuver" it just means you chase the shiney. your choices aren't tactical they are literally what cards I draw dictate entirely how I act this turn Actually it kind of does make you maneuver. You draw 'secure objective 2', your opponent has objective 2. You must then maneuver your army to take said objective from him. Tactical objectives can indeed be very tactical, but as you have mentioned they do have negatives. But if we are going to go this route, then we could continue to pick apart 40k itself with all the issues that exist there, and then just explain even more how this game has a chance (Just like the cards), to be not very tactical. This is a game of chance, randomness, and hopefully fun too . To your other post in regards to 'forging the narrative'. You may think it is dumb that your army is just rushing around from one place to another for no reason, but remember GW left it to you to 'forge the narrative', so try going with this mindset...If you draw a card that say would force that helldrake go into hover mode, maybe there were some orders that came through last second that the specific objective was of high importance on the field of battle and the Helldrake had to make a tough decision to ensure that the objective remains in your hands, even while making himself vulnerable. I find 40k all comes down to your mindset in the end. I do appreciate your points daboarder, and I hope you can see tactical missions do work for some people, and stories can be made if you try.
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Post by daboarder on Jul 31, 2014 11:37:28 GMT
I like the idea, I just hate and despise the candyland execution.
I mean the literal minimum rules changes required is to allow people to re-draw objectives that cannot possibly be completed.
My group has taken to using the cards as secondary objectives. Where each of us draw 3 cards and keep them hidden, then reveal them when they are completed over the course of the game. We include in this objectives that are impossible get immediately declared and re-drawn
at the end of the day play how you want, I myself have pretty much given up on competitive play these days, and given up on buying new stuff too mostly
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Post by tylertt on Jul 31, 2014 11:51:54 GMT
Yeah competitive wise, I completely understand the gripes of a lot of players and agreed with your opinions on that. I do like the idea as secondary maelstrom objectives. That sounds actually very fun, and would help eliminate the annoyance first blood can cause, as I often absolutely need to run small units as screens, which get chewed up so fast. But back to you OP chuckles, I would recommend trying to get a few of your friends together and giving it a shot. I don't know if you were more on the competitive side of the fence or not, but 7th definitely is better then 6th ed IMO, and is worth trying. Hoping you reignite your 40k enjoyment once more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 12:24:22 GMT
I like 7th.
I'll say I dislike how "big" the game has gotten(the shift towards apoc and standard 40k being closer to the same thing), but that's not a gripe with the 7th edition book really. GW's been on that path for a while. Accepting that as something I can't change and enjoying the game I'll say I still like 40k.
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Post by nalathani on Jul 31, 2014 13:13:59 GMT
I play WarmaHordes on and off, probably a half-dozen times a year using Legion of Everblight. It's a great game, with a very simple and effective ruleset. However, it doesn't give me the "feel" of 40k. Nothing beats seeing over a hundred models on the table. Those other games are skirmish games. Your list will have like 5 or 6 models if you're playing Malefaux, or maybe 20 at most if playing WarmaHordes.
Also, I know it's over the top silly, but I'm a fan of the 40k universe. It's so unique, and enormous in scope, that the other games just don't hold my interest as long.
So, I'd play some other games because they are good, and have well written rules. But, don't drop 40k entirely.
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Post by chuckles on Jul 31, 2014 14:38:54 GMT
"Better than 6th" is good, but for me not a high bar to clear as I thought most of the changes 6th brought in were a step backwards. The thing is, the obvious way for me to find out what I make of 7th is to play it but I don't really want to fork out all the cash to get the rules, and most of my regular opponents also jumped ship when 7th dropped.
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Post by chuckles on Jul 31, 2014 14:40:40 GMT
I play WarmaHordes on and off, probably a half-dozen times a year using Legion of Everblight. It's a great game, with a very simple and effective ruleset. However, it doesn't give me the "feel" of 40k. Nothing beats seeing over a hundred models on the table. Those other games are skirmish games. Your list will have like 5 or 6 models if you're playing Malefaux, or maybe 20 at most if playing WarmaHordes. Also, I know it's over the top silly, but I'm a fan of the 40k universe. It's so unique, and enormous in scope, that the other games just don't hold my interest as long. So, I'd play some other games because they are good, and have well written rules. But, don't drop 40k entirely. This seems like a good approach, I too play Warmahordes (Khador) and agree that, fun as it is, it really doesn't have the same feel as 40K. Fantasy kind of does, but it's a very different game and lacks the same balls to the wall insanity that is such a big part of 40K's charm.
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Post by tylertt on Jul 31, 2014 14:53:36 GMT
"Better than 6th" is good, but for me not a high bar to clear as I thought most of the changes 6th brought in were a step backwards. The thing is, the obvious way for me to find out what I make of 7th is to play it but I don't really want to fork out all the cash to get the rules, and most of my regular opponents also jumped ship when 7th dropped. If your lucky, you could snag up a copy of the rule book from a Stormclaw boxset online. No idea what someone would charge for one, it is the same size as the small 6th ed rulebook. Also the new Dark Vengeance kit comes with it too. May be a cheaper option if you do end up having to buy 7th ed rules.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 31, 2014 16:21:11 GMT
The 7th brb has been a leaked pdf since a few days after release, if you want to 'try before you buy' with some friends.
People saying maelstrom doesn't 'forge a narrative' seem to be missing the entire point of objectives in the first place. They are not just spots on the map. They are supposed to represent cinematic and narrative elements. It could be a downed comrade that needs to be rescued hiding under a wrecked command vehicle. It could be an enemy scout about to trigger a massive underground bomb network. It could be that you kill the enemy commander as he's about to authorise the planet be virus bombed while his own men are still on it. It could be you must kill that Landraider in combat to break the enemy morale or because you need to recover something from inside and don't want to risk exploding it. You're supposed to be imaginative.
Points on a map may have inherent strategic value but most of the time in competitive play they are literally just points. That's not GWs fault, that's just the reality of competitive play. It's not just a game it's a competition.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 31, 2014 16:38:48 GMT
Lol anyone trying to sell maelstrom to chucky doesn't remember chuck very well.
Best thing about maelstrom is its optional and ignorable.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 31, 2014 17:17:10 GMT
7th is great, I enjoy it more than 6th mainly because of multi cad and fmc grounding rules. With the new wolves leaks it looks like GW is passing out invuln saves like candy. Yet all the invuln saves my nids and orks had have dried up. If you come back I think the main thing to remember is that Nids are an underdog army and exist solely to give marines something to kill. The rules are slanted and will never be balanced, if you can accept that and play your bugs with that mindset you can find fun with the game. The Ork codex got it as hard as Nids IMO, bugs aren't alone in their NPC target practice role.
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Post by beefythepug on Jul 31, 2014 17:21:35 GMT
7th is fine, the doom and gloom preached in the internet was very overstated. They sky is definitely not falling, core of game and why it is fun is still very much there. Biggest changes regarding super heavies LoW already covered, not a huge fan but I've learned to deal with and expect to face Imperial Knights.
Maelstrom doesn't matter. Some love it, some hate it. No one is making you draw cards as part of the game unless you want to. Doesn't seem to be part of tourneys so if thats your scene, nothing to worry about.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 31, 2014 18:03:26 GMT
7th is fine, the doom and gloom preached in the internet was very overstated. They sky is definitely not falling, core of game and why it is fun is still very much there. Biggest changes regarding super heavies LoW already covered, not a huge fan but I've learned to deal with and expect to face Imperial Knights. Maelstrom doesn't matter. Some love it, some hate it. No one is making you draw cards as part of the game unless you want to. Doesn't seem to be part of tourneys so if thats your scene, nothing to worry about. Sadly, the core of why people are annoyed w/ 40K in general and nids inparticular is still there as well. That having been said, I can't really speak for anyone else but I'm still playing bugs and winning with them. This ain't rocket science. Come back and throw some dice; if you like it throw some more. If you dont, wait a bit and try again later.
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Post by beefythepug on Jul 31, 2014 20:07:49 GMT
also agree with above ^, FWIW I still win with Nids too, at least half the time anyways, and win/lose I almost always have fun and thats good enough reason for me to keep playing.
If you're just burnt out on it, or dealing with a lot of negativity in your local gaming group, take a break for a bit, the hobby isn't going anywhere.
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Post by infornography on Jul 31, 2014 20:33:24 GMT
I'm pretty much taking a break from playing until I can determine if the game is going to continue becoming something I enjoy less and less with each iteration. If so I'll quit even paying attention to it. Right now though I'm out for a while.
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