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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Apr 22, 2014 7:06:57 GMT
So, I am trying to get caught up on what is "trendy" in the hive right now, since I am coming in from out 5th edition codex.
So far I have gathered:
-Hive tyrants with wings, especially 2 hive tyrants with wings, are auto includes in your army and if you can take more (via skyblight or something like that), then you take even more of them. Makes sense since the hive tyrant flying variation went down like 30 points and got a BS buff alongside the need for FMC to keep up with a flying heavy metagame.
-Tyranid Primes are not used, even in low point games.
-Tervigons are used as singleton now, and occasionally you will run a pair, but like last edition you never run them as HQ.
-Mawloc is now prefered over the trygon, but Tfexen/ carnefexen are the most popular heavy support options.
-People still don't take pyrovores, lictors, venomthropes, rippers, hormies, genes, ect.
-Hive guard aren't taken, basically at all, anymore. Zoanthropes are the go to elites.
-Heavy Venom cannon became useful.
-Hive crones are the tyranids adaptive biology kicking in and doing work.
So anything else to add to this list of "need to know" -------
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Post by commandersasha on Apr 22, 2014 7:12:47 GMT
I am now merely a lurker, as the Skavenids are shelved for the moment (Dark Eldar distraction, and not wanting new Skavenid models), but from what I've seen aren't Venomthropes very popular now, often a single one to help with first turn anti-shooting?
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 22, 2014 7:28:05 GMT
So, I am trying to get caught up on what is "trendy" in the hive right now, since I am coming in from out 5th edition codex. So far I have gathered: -Hive tyrants with wings, especially 2 hive tyrants with wings, are auto includes in your army and if you can take more (via skyblight or something like that), then you take even more of them. Makes sense since the hive tyrant flying variation went down like 30 points and got a BS buff alongside the need for FMC to keep up with a flying heavy metagame. pretty much. a dakka flyrant is now 230 base. you don't care about HC (most of the time, outflanking a terv is still a thing if you're taking them though) or OA (nerfed to uselessness). a good add is a thorax weapon, either shreddershard or electroshock (both are good). if you're doing skyblight, some of us are proposing a headhunter CC flyrant with wings, one set of devourers, and the reaper of obliterax to kill high-value pain in the ass fast-moving targets like riptides/wraithknights.-Tyranid Primes are not used, even in low point games. the cost is terribad. there is some use for them in a blob squad of gants as a hard to budge synapse block, but i'm not a fan personally. we've also talked about using them with a 'bodyguard' unit of lictors, especially the forest brood lictors, but it's hella expensive and i've never heard of anyone actually doing this in the real.-Tervigons are used as singleton now, and occasionally you will run a pair, but like last edition you never run them as HQ. spot on. nerfed all to hell and back, probably still a very solid choice but the price and all eggs in one basket approach to them (lol) turned me off to them. loss of biomancy and multiple attacks with crushign claws was just too much.-Mawloc is now prefered over the trygon, but Tfexen/ carnefexen are the most popular heavy support options. trygon is bad now, costs a lot, does little. just not enough damage output to justify the costs. some folks like a prime with the miasma cannon, i like the idea but the $$$ is too much for what you get. acid spray tfex is solid gold, i love them. carnifexes are costly and kind of easy to put down, but have really good damage output IF you can get them into range. X2 devourers still the way to go with them. if you run them in broods, their mutliple S9 hammer of wrath attacks are pretty brutal.-People still don't take pyrovores, lictors, venomthropes, rippers, hormies, genes, ect. venomthropes are probably still good, even with the amount of ignores cover out there. i'd just rather have a skysheild, because there's not a lot of circumventing a 4+ invul and it doesnt' give up killpoints/first blood.-Hive guard aren't taken, basically at all, anymore. Zoanthropes are the go to elites. i would take HG still, but i have no room for them in any list i've tried. yes they lost the BS skill, but they gained flat out ignores cover. coredump threw some math at it, unless your targets were not ever getting cover saves before because your opponent was derp or you played on planet bowlingball, new HG is actually better even with the 3BS. stick with impaler cannons, the shockcannon is garbage (no ignores cover, 18" range, blast).-Heavy Venom cannon became useful. only on harpies. it's still kind of (please do not swear) and there are better options on the other platforms that carry it.-Hive crones are the tyranids adaptive biology kicking in and doing work. crones are the new public enemy number 1. do not just take one. take two, along with 2 flyrants, as a minimum. they draw a lot of hate.So anything else to add to this list of "need to know" ------- just my two cents!
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 22, 2014 7:31:14 GMT
also: biovores remain awesome. mawlocks *can* be good but you have to take 3 and a coms relay which is a big points investment. my worms list is pretty ugly though. exocrine underperforms IMO. its got a BS of 3 until it stops moving, and even if it just uses the blast, it has no access to ignores cover. it's expensive and will draw hate. if you use them, run them in pairs with AG to make sure you get into range ASAP. i've stopped using them myself, in favor of double tfex or triple mawlock.
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Apr 22, 2014 7:43:28 GMT
Venomthropes only got better, so they do see some use now. Instead of giving a fixd 5+ Cover Save, they now grant a 2+ to any existing save which is pretty boss. Heavy Venom Cannon is as meh as before imo. Hive Crones are indeed the new go-to unit and imo the only must-have-ish new unit. Hive Guards do see their use, but not as much as they used to.
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Post by Davor on Apr 22, 2014 11:35:34 GMT
Don't forget the data slates. Scoring Gargoyles! Scoring Gargoyles that still score even if the enemy is a scoring unit. Stealing Scoring Gargoyles, just in case you didn't understand because I can't explain myself
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:11:32 GMT
There are a handful of highly competitive nid builds. Most of them are centered around FMC spam because we can't deal with flyers too well otherwise.
As an example a list that placed top 3 of 26(I want to say 2nd) in a tourney last saturday was as follows: (and it wrecked) 2 devil-flyrants 2 crones 1 Harpy 1 Skyshield landing pad(now what goes on the skyshield): 3 Exocrines 1 tervigon 1 venomthrope and 30 outflanking gaunts
The venomthrope is still useful. Yes there's a good amount of ignore cover but it still forces your opponent to either pick where to use their ignore cover weapons or take out the venomthrope first and forego firing at something else. Take squads of 1 if you take more than one, since the benefit to a larger squad isn't much at all. Also because a lot of indirect fire weapons draw line of sight from the center of the blast, the venomthrope can still grant your small guys like gaunts a cover save from being large blasted to bits. Throw in the fact that you can hide this guy behind a MC and completely deny your opponent the ability to directly fire at him and you still have what for 45 points is cheap.
The exocrine is....he performs statistically worse than the devilfex in almost all cases. BUT, throw 3 on a skyshield? Firstly you're going to draw a lot more unobscured line of sight because of a significantly higher vantage. And str 7 ap:2 is hot. If your guys are on the skyshield they're likely stationary and getting +1BS. While terminators are not the ironclad monstrosities they were long ago, there are more 2+ saves than just them and the ap:2 will help take out some armor. I've heard people say if you're running an exocrine run no less than two and use them as a heavy potentially mobile firing line, this way not only do they stand a much better shot of tearing up targets in range but they can support eachother in assault(or give the other a chance to escape if things have hit the fan). I wasn't as much of a fan of this guy until I saw the skyshield list I put up above. 3 exocrines at the front of the pad, heavily obscuring a sideways tervigon, which obscured a venomthrope. This game him the ability to around turn 3 safely get off the skyshield landing pad with the tervigon and venomthrope, spawn gaunts, and start trudging towards objectives while the gunline wreaked havoc and while what's left of his fliers(which have much more firepower than 3 exocrines) still ravage enemy lines. I put up a (long) battlerep from BOLS on my tourney thread that basically showcases this guy's list.
Flyers....we don't deal well with flyers. 5 FMC's will wreck some fliers since they get to use skyfire. Especially when at least two of them have twin linked devourers(shear number of shots+ grounding) and two of them have tentaclid missiles which can knock out some armor regardless of AV.
Biovores are good in more or less any list. For what they do and with their ability to hide completely, honestly they're basically the new hive guard to me(with less AV potential) since HG took a BS hit that the longer I keep trying to run them the more I end up grossly frustrated.
Zoanthropes make a decent slow advancing synapse since instinctive behavior now blows to become victim of. Plus some AV potential and possibility to exist as a buff unit. 3+ invuln makes an opponent have to work at knocking them out.
Besides that I think giga is fairly spot on. A lot of the stuff in this codex is just too high priced for what it does. And they might be good except...other peoples codex's. They could exist as good if points got tweaked for other armies.
Warriors have been getting run by more people as scoring objective holders(since a squad in cover with enough numbers is statistically as resilient as a tervigon with none of the synaptic backlash, though obviously ID potential).
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Apr 24, 2014 18:54:58 GMT
Don't forget the data slates. Scoring Gargoyles! Scoring Gargoyles that still score even if the enemy is a scoring unit. Stealing Scoring Gargoyles, just in case you didn't understand because I can't explain myself yea on this: so that means they can't be contested? I am confused on the wording for that rule. Of course scoring gargoyles only counts if you have skyblight, and skyblight is is a great deal because you would be taking most of the stuff in it anyway and the formation doesnt count for FOC. It is the only formation I ever see anyone actually use, actually. Is there any reason to not use the skyblight formation outside of not having a dataslate/ models?
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Apr 24, 2014 18:58:07 GMT
Depends on what your meta is. It's certainly our best bet against competitive lists, but generally speaking I don't think its necessary to have some success in 'regular' games. It seems a lot of gaming groups remain undecided as to whether or not they will allow dataslates or not as they, alongside everything else in this game, are poorly balanced.
The Living Artillery formation is my favorite because it doesn't really require you to build the list around it. Biovores and Exocrines are good on their own, but it's a nice touch and free Heavy Support FOC's.
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Post by Davor on Apr 24, 2014 19:23:56 GMT
Don't forget the data slates. Scoring Gargoyles! Scoring Gargoyles that still score even if the enemy is a scoring unit. Stealing Scoring Gargoyles, just in case you didn't understand because I can't explain myself yea on this: so that means they can't be contested? I am confused on the wording for that rule. Of course scoring gargoyles only counts if you have skyblight, and skyblight is is a great deal because you would be taking most of the stuff in it anyway and the formation doesnt count for FOC. It is the only formation I ever see anyone actually use, actually. Is there any reason to not use the skyblight formation outside of not having a dataslate/ models? The way I read it, scoring units can't contest, but it seems non scoring units can still contest the Skyblight Gargoyles. so this is one of those questions that will need to be FAQed, so of course it won't be answered by GW.
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Post by nameless on Apr 24, 2014 19:36:41 GMT
Don't forget the data slates. Scoring Gargoyles! Scoring Gargoyles that still score even if the enemy is a scoring unit. Stealing Scoring Gargoyles, just in case you didn't understand because I can't explain myself yea on this: so that means they can't be contested? I am confused on the wording for that rule. Of course scoring gargoyles only counts if you have skyblight, and skyblight is is a great deal because you would be taking most of the stuff in it anyway and the formation doesnt count for FOC. It is the only formation I ever see anyone actually use, actually. Is there any reason to not use the skyblight formation outside of not having a dataslate/ models? The other one is the artillery one. Biovores are good without TL, so they get better. The exocrine gets pinning plus TL on the blast gun, so they get a lot better. A lot of list take 3 HS these days and a min squad of warriors isn't terrible to have in your back field holding an objective. You will have to do a bit of a dance to keep everything with 12" of the warriors though due to the exocrine's 24" range. The skyblight is better, but a high cost ($) in models. The data slate says that scoring units can't contest, but denial units still can. The living swarm can be good, but not great in timed games (i.e. tournaments). You're still required to take 2 troops, so you're looking at at least 9 TR choices here. Not for me (I'd rather have a swarm of boyz), but some others like it.
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Post by Davor on Apr 24, 2014 20:23:36 GMT
Where does it say in the data slates that denial units still can?
Does it say explicitly, or it's the because it doesn't say they can't, they still can because there is no rule saying non denial units can't?
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Post by nameless on Apr 24, 2014 20:33:31 GMT
Where does it say in the data slates that denial units still can? Does it say explicitly, or it's the because it doesn't say they can't, they still can because there is no rule saying non denial units can't? Based on this: There is nothing to say that you ignore the BRB ruling of denial units only that of scoring units.
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Post by coredump on Apr 24, 2014 20:49:25 GMT
Nameless: The BRB says that denial units can stop Scoring units from controlling and objective.
Skyblight gargs are not make into scoring units, they are non-scoring units that can control objectives. Thus denial units have no effect on them.
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Post by nameless on Apr 24, 2014 21:01:06 GMT
Ah. Upon further reading, it seems clear that denial units only stop scoring units. Good call.
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